I just want to say great posts ThaRegul8r and Drexlerfan22 regarding Russell and Chamberlain. I read every word of it. Regardless of who is the best, those were really great posts.
That's the best post I have ever seen on this board. Edit: One thing though about your point on blocks just like people forget that blocks weren't counted, there was also no goal tending rule when Russell came into the league. Can you imagine how many blocks some of these guys would have today with no goal tending?
I don't know whether to laugh or cry laughing... this has got to be the most hysterical statement in this thread. "He shot them when it mattered" - and this is the "greatest NBA player ever". Of course the rest of the times he shot and missed, it was because "it didn't matter", right? And this is the guy some of you are calling "the greatest". You've provided no proof of anything other than your ability to create and/or quote some silly statements of Bill Russell worship. And picking a handful of games where Russell did well from the line in crunchtime and pointing them out is akin to telling me Robert Horry is some great player because he's hit a few threes at the end of games to win them. Where the hell were you the rest of the game, Robert? Further proof of your hypocrisy. Russell was good from the FT line "when it mattered" (lol), why couldn't he decide to do that EVERY game? Please. At least I can admit that Chamberlain had a weakness in the fact he couldn't shoot FT's. You guys come up with these nutty explanations of greatness to justify Russell's weakness.
I have to agree with Regul8tor, he proved his poing fairly well. You can argue that Russell was a poor shooter, but he clearly proved that Russell shot well when it matter most. Yes, there is an argument that he still should have shot a higher percentage, especially for a center. But the wins don't lie, and the fact that Regul8tor has gone past the usual stats to prove how well he performed in big games pretty much solidifies his point. Wins are a stat. Championships are a stat.
But see, that's my point. People point to Russell as being the greatest ever and the usual defense revolves around the rings. That tells me those Celtics were one of the greatest teams ever and Russell was a very major part of that. It doesn't equate to Russell being the greatest NBA player in my opinion. To me, the greatest player ever doesn't necessarily have to have the most rings. Was Chamberlain a great "team player" - probably not. But that wasn't the question. He was the most unstoppable player ever to play the game - he was the greatest player to play the game. And the hypocrisy of asking why Wilt didn't have the drive to win championships year after year, but saying it's ok for Russell to brick FT's "except when it counted" is just sad. Sorry guys, no one's convinced me yet that Bill Russell should be ranked higher than Chamberlain on the totem pole. Good arguments by both sides, however.
And he was the only player in the history of NBA that has a triple twenty in one game. I mean, 20+ points, rebounds, and assists. 21 assists from your point center. Even the great Hakeem was never even close to achieving that accomplishments.
2. Tell me one weakness Clyde Drexler had? Oh yeah, he didn't have one either, and he was a better rebounder and passer than Jordan. Being a complete player doesn't make you the greatest ever. Wanna talk most complete? Magic and Oscar crushed Jordan as far as "complete player" goes. But facts are facts: a big guy will, in general, have a bigger impact on the outcomes of games. I really wouldn't care that Wilt wasn't a good free-throw shooter at the end of the game if he was up on Jordan's team by 15. The fact is that even with Pippen in 1994-95, Jordan COULD NOT WIN THE TITLE WITHOUT A TOP-TIER BIG GUY.[/QUOTE] Are you saying that Drexler, Magic, and Oscar were great defenders? I dont know what you are smoking, but PLEASE give me some. Jordan may not have been the great passer that Magic and Robinson were, but he was a good passer. He was also a dominant scorer and defender. If you had to pick ONE player to build a team it would have to be Jordan because he could do sooo many things. Yes, big men are easier to build around, and easier to win with, but the the exception is JORDAN. Please tell me when Magic, Oscar, and Drexler were dominant defenders? Please tell me when Magic become a great scorer? My point is that if Jordan was needed to score and carry a team he could. If he had to guard the best perimeter player he could. If he wanted to get his teammates better shots he could. I dont know why you keeping bring in silly stats like Wilt shot 72% of the field..blah blah. Do you honestly think he could shoot 72% today? Not only are players more athletic and physically bigger, but defenses schemes are MUCH MUCH more complicated. There are TONS of scounting in the nba today that virtually ANY weakness a player has will be EXPOSED. There are so many variables you have to take into account, and not go by stats when you compare players, especially of different eras. Obviously you dont take that into consideration.
ThaRegul8r, well thought out and research posts. However you had some off comparisons with Kareem. When Malone handled Kareem in the playoffs he almost 34, he was still an outstanding player, but probably overrated at that point in his career and not close to his peak dominant self. It is nearly as unfair as evaluating Jordan-Magic basketball skill based on Jordan's first title team meeting those Lakers, or evaluating Shaq-Hakeem based on their last playoff meeting when Hakeem was 35. Kareem from 70-76 averaged about 30PPG, 16RPG, 3.5-3.8BPG, and 4.5APG--that was the peak Kareem (his later awards and recognition were probably a product of him still being a very, very good player with a great player rep), and probably only Wilt in his prime was more individually dominant in all phases over a 6 year span like that. To me Russell was clearly a great player, but also in the ideal situation, and it is very hard to seperate the two in evalutating his overall case as the best ever. I agree he has a good case for the best ever, I'll get to that later. I agree. I think a case can be made for Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Jordan based on weighting team success, individual performance and subjective moments (e.g., stepping up) Sorry, I don't think Magic has a legit argument. Jordan IMO is slam dunk the best non-big and top 4 all time player, he was just too dominant of scorer and a better defender to consider Magic or Robertson ahead of him. Still, IMO I would have Wilt and Kareem, and maybe Russell, ahead of Jordan. Again it is really hard to pick and choose among these 4 because they are so different with different measures of greatness. Weighing team titles at all levels more--Russell, weighing accumulation of titles and individual measures equally--Kareem than Jordan, weighing individual measures more, Wilt no contest. In the end for me Wilt's out of this world individual performance figures stand out so far from the rest that he earned the title of the best basketball player ever. Maybe not the ideal player for the best team (Russell), but best individual basketball player. If you are starting from scratch I think probably Wilt #1, Kareem #2. If you want a player with no weakness, how about Hakeem? Certainly a more impactfull team defensive player than Jordan. So by your completeness argument, one could argue Hakeem. Or Joe Dumars. Dumars had a complete offensive game (including less TOs than Jordan) and was universally considered a great defender. But no, I don't think either Hakeem nor Dumars is better than Jordan, even if there are some more complete elements to their game. Wilt in 72-73 had a 72.7% season (but this was on scoring less than 15PPG). In 66-67 he shot 68.3%. Shaq this year shot 60.1%. Given it more less should be settled Wilt is a lot like a more athletically gifted version of Shaq, how far fetched is it Wilt could shoot another 8% better, not that much. Further, look at the comparions based on leaders that year. 66-67 #1 Wilt 68% #2 Walt Bellomy 52% #3 Oscar 49% (Note Jerry West was #15 at 46%) 72-73 #1 Wilt 73% #2 Matt Guokos 57% #3 Kareem 55% (note: guys like Wes Unseld and Earl Monroe bottom out the top 20 at 49%) 04-05 #1 Shaq 60% #2 Amare 56% #3 Yao 55% #4-#5 Haslem and Curry at 54% Wilt has an insane spread between him and the #2 guy like 14-15%. Further if it is "easier" to have a high % now it sure doesn't look like it. If Yahoo's like Curry and Haslem can hit 54% in 2005 while Jerry West, Oscar Robertson and Wes Unseld struggle to hit 50%, that does not suggest it is much, if any, easier to score today.
Firstly, I never said Magic or Clyde were "great" defenders, I said they had no weaknesses. They certainly weren't bad defenders, but they didn't dominate. Good job putting words in my mouth, smart guy. 1. Wow. Congratulations. You just claimed Oscar Robertson was not a great defender. That is truly one of the stupidest things I've ever heard on this board. First of all, you're going to cite all-defensive team selections. Well guess what? There was no all-defensive team until 1968-69. And Robertson was half the player he used to be by 1970 (which is still really good). Plus, all-defensive selections have always been really screwy. A few years back Doug Christie was fourth in the voting for defensive player of the year, and the first guard on the list. Yet somehow he didn't make first team. Make sense to you? All-defensive selections can't always be relied upon. Secondly, you're going to cite Jordan's steals. Steals and blocks weren't recorded until the last two years of Robertson's career, and even if that weren't the case, steals make not the defender. Are Bruce Bowen and Dennis Rodman great defenders? Yes they are, and neither got many steals or blocks. Steals just mean you're a bigger gambler (pardon the pun). Thirdly, let me tell you a little story. Jack Twyman, All-Star guard, had gone to the same college Oscar attended (Cincinnati) 5 years earlier. He ended up meeting Robertson when he was already a pro and Robertson was just out of high school. He figured he'd play the hot new kid one-on-one. The score: 21-0, Oscar. You don't beat an NBA All-Star 21-zilch OUT OF HIGH SCHOOL by being an okay defender. Want more? Ask Bill Bradley. He'll tell you Robertson was the toughest defender he ever faced. But enough about Oscar, let's address Jordan himself. Jordan was a good defender, but he was made to look much better by Pippen, because Pippen took the tougher assignment (because he was a better defender). Remember Chicago's first championship? Against the Lakers in 1991? Well, Jordan vs. Magic was hyped to no end. Jordan vs. Magic, Jordan vs. Magic, Jordan vs. Magic, that's all you heard about. So of course, they were assigned to cover each other. Better drama that way. And Magic beat Jordan like a red-headed stepchild. LA won game 1, their only win of the series. Then Pippen covered Magic for the rest of the series, as he normally did during the season. The Bulls won the rest. Yeah, Jordan was a good defender. But he was made to look better because he rarely had the toughest cover. All that, and Oscar was a far, far superior rebounder and passer to boot. Oh, and the assists numbers are closer than they should be. In Oscar's day, an assist only counted if the scorer took no dribbles before putting it in. Today, an assist is when "a pass leads directly to a score," basically meaning that the scorer doesn't need to change directions or throw a lot of fakes. In today's NBA, Shaq could inbound to Wade, Wade could dribble all the way down the court unimpeded and lay it in, and that's an assist for Shaq. If you wanna know Big O's real assists numbers, you should probably add about 4 to his career averages. Umm, Magic became a great scorer when he needed to... meaning when Kareem was out. I don't think I need to remind you of how many points he scored the first time that happened. I like how you still say "Yes, big men are easier to build around, and easier to win with, but the the exception is JORDAN." Jordan never did anything without a top big guy, as I've said many times before. So I don't see how he's an exception. 2. Great. Then why did Pippen usually cover the other team's best player, and why could Jordan win jack squat without one of the top big bodies in the game? 3. Wow, this is getting funny. You're really reaching now. I cite player testimonials and statistics, and you come back with "defenses are more complicated?" Where's this scouting you speak of? If the scouting was so great, how come New Jersey and Washington could never figure out that every time Wade drove right he went all the way, and every time he drove left he shot a jumper? Yeah, great job of scouting there. Oh, and scouting can clearly stop Shaq, right? "No big deal guys, just don't let him get low post position." Easy, right? Uhh, no. No one today can guard Shaq. And Wilt was as strong as Shaq, plus he could hit turnaround-fadaways from 15 feet, plus he could run faster, plus he could jump higher, plus he was a much better passer, plus he was a much better ballhandler. If defenses today can't handle Shaq, how are they supposed to handle Wilt? "Defensive schemes are more complicated." You're the one who needs to pass the pipe. EDIT: Oh, and see Desert Scar's post on the 72% number. I'm thinking a 16% spread is pretty significant. Nice research, DS.
LOL...your posts crack me up. Jordan was known by his peers BEFORE Pippen arrival as a defensive beast. My point is he could score at WILL and defend anyone. Are you telling me Magic can score in bunches like MJ?? GET REAL. You say Jordan could never win without a top notch BIG. Who was his top notch big? H.Grant? Sure he was a good player, but TOP NOTCH? What become of Grant after he left Chicago? Rodman? Sure he was good defender and one of the best rebounders ever, but besides Detroit how many teams won with him? How many teams were productive with him? You dont think MJ had something to do with Rodman playing undercontrol? And SINCE when do you consider Rodman and Grant TOP NOTCH big men? Good role players but TOP NOTCH??? Get off the cheese. As for Wilt being as strong as Shaq. You know this for a fact? Wilt was listed at what 7'1 and 275? Shaq is 7'1 350lbs. Im pretty sure Shaq would given Wilt fits. You realize that Shaq is 75lbs MORE than Wilt, and the way he moves, run, and jump is AMAZING for someone his size. And if you really dont think defenses are more complicated today than the past you really got problems.
monkeyboy32, Shaq was actually fairly weak when he came into the league. His "strength" lies in his mass. I think when he entered the league, he couldn't even bench 300 lbs. But then when you have a 300 lbs. body, you probably didn't need to. Next, you talk about Shaq's speed, quickness, etc. He was not the athlete that Wilt was. Wilt competed successfully in the shot put, high jump, and the triple jump. He set a conference record in the high jump. He was a hell of a volleyball player and eventually ran marathons into his 50's. I don't have proof at the moment to back this up, but I've read that Wilt benched well over 400 lbs. The man was an athletic freak before there were athletic freaks in the NBA. Even by today's standards he'd be a freak of nature in the NBA. So when you mention Shaq as an athlete in the same breath as Wilt, you're off your rocker. Shaq is big and strong, but he's not 50% of the athlete Chamberlain was.
Jordan had to learn to do whatever it took to win. Magic didn't (see aforementioned Finals as a ROOKIE where he played CENTER and threw down a monster). Magic made his team better from the start of his career to the end. Jordan was a better scorer and defender but Magic was made his teammates better (again from the beginning) and his scoring DID elevate as Kareem's went down (again compensating for what the team needs to win). He was more versatile (could play any position) which is HUGE. When we talk about the greatest we often talk about people who can do many things well. Magic could do whatever his team needed to win - scoring, rebounding, creating opportunity for his teammates and control the game - AND he could play all five positions. Also, his rings were against MUCH better competition in the Finals.
Sure Jordan was a great defensive player, though Pippen was at least an equal. It did help Jordan, particularly later in his career, because he usually didn't have to play the opponents best guard/SF--it was Pippen guarding the Drexlers, Magics, Millers for the most part and allowing Jordan to pick his spots defensively and save his energy offensively. All the Bulls ring years they did have an all-defense caliber 4 as well--when they didn't (94-95) they didn't get through the EC. Very different than a guy like Hakeem who had to be the centerpiece of the offense and defense. Still, you will get no argument from me that Magic or any other non-big was better than Jordan. 1st, Shaq is was at his best at more like the 330 range. The fact Wilt was that strong, athletic and gracefull at 275 before the modern weight training/ nutrition/supplements era gives me every indication he was at least naturally as strong as Shaq and could have carried 330 easily. Granted we can never test this theory. The shooting figures I presented before don't support your case Wilt's stats were particularly inflated. He was about 15% better than great, great players in two different seasons. Shaq for example was only 5% better than some very ordinary players (Curry/Haslem) on Shaq's best shooting season. Points per game, shooting %, look fairly comparable from the 1960s on. I do think rebounds were probably inflated more, I would think Russell and Wilts 25ish something RPG seasons were inflated from 5 to 10 from what they would be today, be it due to better guard rebounding or something else today. Then again if Ben Wallace, Rodman and Barkley can produce 15-17RPG seasons in the modern era, it would not surprise me if Russell and Wilt could not best those figures.
I missed monkeyboy32's statement about Magic not being able to score in bunches. If Magic focused solely on offense, he could've been one of the greatest offensive players to play the game. My reasoning is this : he had the skills to blow by people big enough to defend him, he had size to post up or drive on people normally guarding his position, and while his jumper was no thing of beauty, he could get to the basket at will. Averaging 25-30 ppg would not have been difficult for Magic. As someone else has already mentioned, he played center and excelled. He could've played any position on the court and excelled. Offensively, anyway.
1. Why should I care that Jordan was a known entity before Pippen was known? The fact remains that Pippen covered the other team's top guy, and did it demonstrably better (see 1991 Finals). Great, Jordan was a great scorer. I never said otherwise. But Wilt was a better scorer. No, Jordan COULDN'T defend anyone. He proved he couldn't guard Magic in the 1991 Finals, as my previous post recounted. Pippen could. Speaking of Magic, if Jordan was such a GREAT defender, and Magic COULDN'T score in bunches, how come Jordan couldn't guard him? Oh, that's right, because you're in the habit of ignoring facts. Pippen was a better defender than Jordan, and Magic COULD score in bunches... the only reason he didn't was because he had the ALL-TIME LEADING SCORER on his team, plus James Worthy who besides being a superstar was also, ironically, the reason why North Carolina won that championship that Jordan got all the credit for. Not to mention Byron Scott and Michael Cooper. Magic had far better scorers around him that Jordan did, period. Therefore, he didn't score as much. That doesn't mean he couldn't. 2. Uhhh... Grant was an all-star who gave you 10 rebounds a game and could hit an 18-foot jumper CONSISTENTLY, and was an excellent interior defender. How many power forwards back then could do that? GIVE ME A LIST. And what became of Grant after he left Chicago? His team eliminated the Bulls in 1995, and he played in the 1995 finals while MJ sat at home. That's what happened to him, until the Bulls got someone to replace him... ...Dennis Rodman. You are a grade A idiot if you think one of the top 5 rebounders EVER was NOT TOP NOTCH. And he was a top-tier defender as well. Are you hearing yourself here? Seriously? Who do you want, superman? One of the top rebounders ever isn't good enough for you? Oh, and where was Rodman before Jordan? Winning championships for Detroit. "What other teams won with him," you ask? Well, he only played complete seasons for one other team: San Antonio. The 2 years he was with them, they finished in 1st and 2nd place in the West, respectively. So yeah, he was a winner with every team he played for, excluding his 20-game stints right before retirement. 3. Gee, I gave testimonials from Red Auerbach, Rick Barry, and Darrall Imhoff, who have actually seen both of them play many times, god forbid. What the hell else do you want? You're citing weight, I'm citing the word of people who were THERE. If you think weight automatically equals strength, you're sadly mistaken. Larry Allen is the strongest man in the NFL at 335. He can bench press SEVEN HUNDRED POUNDS. By your logic, Gilbert Brown (formerly 400 pounds) simply MUST be stronger. He's not. Not by a longshot. You run Larry Allen and Gilbert Brown at each other, Gilbert Brown WILL be the one on the ground. 4. I didn't say they weren't. The comment about you needing to pass the pipe with the "complicated" statement regarded you using that as an argument that today's defenses could contain Wilt, not that it isn't true in itself. What I DID say was that scouting isn't as great as you think it is (see Wade), and I said that if these so-called "complicated" defenses (is that the technical term?) can't stop Shaq, how the hell are they gonna stop Wilt, hmm? You have yet to answer that AND the little matter of Wilt being 16% ahead of the 2nd-place guy in FG%, next to Shaq's 4%. So where's the "complicated" defensive scheme that can stop Shaq? Show me. Seriously. Because if you can't, all you're doing is talking to hear yourself speak. If a "complicated" defense can't stop Shaq, it has no prayer of stopping Wilt.
I found an article on wilt from 1955. It's an interesting scouting report on wilt as a freshman in college. Link Chamberlain rated greatest in court game Phenomenal 7-footer chose Kansas offer over more than 100 other bids by Don Pierce The Sporting News December 21, 1955 LAWRENCE, Kan. -- The greatest basketball player in the game today, greater than Bob Cousy, Bob Pettit and Neil Johnston of the pros and Bill Russell and Robin Freeman of the collegians! Greater, perhaps, than any player who ever lived; so good, in fact, that the rules are certain to be rewritten to curb this fabulous performer. Veteran observers of the cage game are couching such superlatives for only one player -- a hard-to-believe college freshman, Wilt "The Stilt" Chamberlain. Unlikely as it may seem to bracket a teen-ager with the greats of the game, it's even more unlikely that the harshest critic will reserve any doubts after seeing the Kansas University phenom stretch his seven feet of sinew in his patented hardwood pyrotechnics. The rave notices that preceded Wilt from his native Philadelphia to the Kansas campus were taken with the traditional grain of salt by hard-shelled fans in these parts who had been steeled against phenoms after years of watching Clyde Lovellette and B.H. Born. But then Wilt made his appearance and the bandwagon shifted into high gear with a capacity load, and no trace of a dissenting vote. Playing for the KU frosh against the varsity in the annual homecoming weekend game, Chamberlain scored 42 points in spearheading an 81-71 victory for the greenies. ALREADY A GATE MAGNATE With The Stilt as obvious magnet, 14,000 fans, 3,000 short of capacity in the Jayhawks' new Allen Fieldhouse, paid to watch the contest. The Jays, including two bona fide All-Americas in Captain Dallas Dobbs and Gene Elstun, have been conceded a sparkling chance of winning the Big Seven championship, but with Wilt dominating the play throughout, the varsity bowed for the first time in the series that was started in 1922. Playing every minute of the game, Chamberlain hit on 16-of-35 shots from the field for a percentage of .460 and added 10-of-13 free-throw attempts. He scored four of his goals on two-handed dunks, lifting his elbows as high as the rim. He sideboarded home three more when teammates appeared to fire short or wide. The rest he leveled from ranges of point blank to 15 feet. And he found time to harvest 29 rebounds and block four enemy tries almost before they could clear the fingers of the shooters. Chamberlain's feats in this game can be brought more clearly into focus by consideration of these facts: KU's single-game scoring record is 44 points, held jointly by Lovellette, now ace of the Minneapolis Lakers, and Born, now with the Peoria Caterpillars. The one-game rebound mark is 24, owned by Lew Johnson, current varsity center. The fieldhouse scoring ceiling is 25, established by Oklahoma's Jimmy Peck last year. After Wilt's opening salvo, the gold rush was on. The 19-year-old wonder and his coach, Dr. F.C. "Phog" Allen, no stranger in the publicity mill himself, have been patiently answering interview questions, and posing for stills and movies, almost everyday. National publications have been on the phone almost daily. Television networks sent movie crews to Lawrence. All this over a freshman who will not put on a varsity uniform for a full year. But what a freshman! As Allen remarked jocularly a few days before the varsity-freshman match: "Wilt could team with two co-eds and two Phi Beta Kappas and do pretty well." Wilt, however, drew considerably more help than that from as highly-rated a yearling squad as ever was assembled at Mt. Oread. And he performed much better than "pretty well." The Stilt is most effective simply because of his physical qualities. He stands 7-feet in his sweat socks. Over this frame are spread 225 sinewy pounds. He is almost as agile as a 5-11 playmaker. He can jump 24 inches straight up. Against the varsity he was not bothered noticeably by the new 12-foot lane. His timing on the slightly off-target shots of his mates, in another year, will match that of Bill Russell, the fabulous human funnel of San Francisco. Spectators can actually see his pie-plate hands jam down inside the net. Chamberlain hasn't shown yet that he ranks as a shooter with Lovellette, the 6-9, 244-pound mastodon who led Kansas to the 1952 NCAA title. Against the varsity, Wilt didn't hook once. He likes to use the board to bank, unless he is at point blank. His favorite shot is a jump-turn righthander down the middle of the lane, accomplished off an unusual left-to-right movement. He combines this well with a wedging drive to the goal, which is more dexterous than swift. This is his maneuver to gain position for the two-hand dunk, which is going to splinter some planks at both ends of the fieldhouse before the lad graduates. FALLS SHORT ON DEFENSE If Chamberlain falls short in any department at the present time, it is in a lack of aggressiveness off the boards and in pursuing the loose ball. He doesn't raise his arms high enough on defense but when he does it's going to be like shooting over the Fort Cheyenne stockade. The most ominous news to league rivals are these three facts: 1) He already carries a good idea of how to get the most from his size and agility and an aptitude to learn considerably more. 2) He has unusual stamina. 3) He is going to be a blue-chip competitor. He looked better against the varsity than in any workout. Wilt is not a one-sport man, either. At Overbrook High School in Philly, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 in 49.0 seconds and the 880 in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, broad jumped 22 feet. Bill Easton, Jayhawks track boss, predicts Wilt will reach 7 feet in the high jump if he concentrates on it. "He easily has greater possibilities than any player we ever had here," says Allen, who is in his 39th season at Kansas. "He has coordination, can run and can jump. He can do everything. "A fan simply can't realize the effect of such an overpowering man. He just paralyzes smaller players. "I thought he'd score 40 points against the varsity and he beat that estimate by two. He's even better than he looks out there. He's the best I ever saw. You can say his presence increases KU's basketball prospects by 50 percent. "It's natural to compare his with Lovellette, and there actually isn't much comparison. Clyde had an uncanny touch with the ball that made him a wonderful shot. He was fairly shifty, like a boxer. Clyde also had big hips and shoulders that enabled him to block out defenders and get a lot of tip-ins. But he couldn't jump nor run nearly as well as Wilt. It was hi touch that made him great." Allen has an answer for the needlers of his long-standing avocation of the 12-foot basket, too. "I'm not going to say one more thing about the height of the basket," he told a reporter the other day. "I've talked 12-foot baskets for years. Now let someone else argue for them." No wonder the Philadelphia Warriors drafted Wilt right out of high school, and, as a result scored an unprecedented coup for future security four years early. When it was announced last spring that The Stilt had chosen to matriculate at Kansas in preference to more than 100 other colleges that had bid for his services, some observers grew curious as to why he traveled so far from his home base. There was sound reason for Chamberlain to enroll at Kansas. Any youth interested in improving his basketball fortunes would consider KU. The winning tradition, that has produced one NCAA champion -- the club that furnished seven members of the 1952 United States Olympic team -- and two runners-up, is long and rich. What coach is more famous than Allen, builder of 31 conference title teams in 46 years? Where are there better cage facilities than the massive arena in which the Jayhawks are starting their first full season? Allen himself is a persuasive recruiter. He visited the young man and his parents in Philadelphia. They were enough impressed that Chamberlain twice visited the campus before announcing his choice late in May. Allen also rallied several of the university's most prominent African-American alumni. Their selling job of the school's academic and athletic advantages was a good one. When Chamberlain made known his preference for Kansas, Joe Wilson, head of KU's dormitories and housing facilities, ordered a special 7 1/2-foot bed for the new Carruth-O'Learly dormitory, where Wilt rooms with Charlie Tidwell, national interscholastic 180-yard low hurdles record-holder from Independence, Kan. There was some other ordering necessary, too. The in-seam of Chamberlain's new freshman warmup pants measures 42 inches. When held at ankle length, the top of the trousers reaches the nose of trainer Dean Nesmith, 5-11. That's the sort of fate that will befall a lot of rivals over the next three years . . . looking the guy directly in the belt-buckle and wondering what to do about it!
When the heck did MJ guard Magic for an extended period of time in the finals? Am I missing something here? Pippen was assigned the duty to guard Magic because they didnt want to exhaust Jordan with the duty to guard Magic and score. Is that too hard for you to comprehend? you ARE the idiot if you think Jordan wasnt a great defender. And do you honestly think Magic was Jordan equal in terms of scoring abilities? 2. I hope you realize in 95 MJ was just a shell of his former self. He came back from a 2 year period of NOT playing competitive basketball. Why dont you try to not play ball for a few months and then come back. 3. You did give statements of other players OPINIONS. Guess what? They are opinions. Those are also opinions of coaches and players from the past. How many of those guys have guarded shaq? NONE. Seeing is different from having to guard. I make my judgements and OPINIONs only on the basis that I see todays NBA players to be MUCH quicker and stronger. Why dont you ask Dream and Drob who was the strongest player they had to guard or who they think the strongest player ever was? You think you would get a different answer? 4. Im not referring to weight as strength. Shaq is great because of his strength and BULK. The nba has never seen anyone of shaq's bulk/power/quickness. PERIOD. Defense schemes may not be able to STOP shaq, but they make it more difficult for him. My point is if Wilt played in the NBA today he would have a much harder time of scoring than he would of during his era. He wouldnt put up RIDICULOUS numbers like he would of. Im sure Shaq's numbers would of been inflated too if had played in Wilt's era. You cant STOP any great player. Please dont take my comments out of context. Defensive schemes are much more complex today because there are so much more rotations and double teams coming from different areas. It is much much harder to read. Do you see any of that in Wilt's era? Thats what I am referring too. This is my last post on this topic as I think its too hard to argue about players of different eras. It is like arguing politics and religions....NOBODY ever wins. IMHO I think MJ is the greatest of all time because he had the stats and hardware to prove it. He dominated the game on both ends of the court, and had the will and passion of no other. He is the ultimate winner and OVERACHIEVER. Wilt may of have been the most overpowering and physically gifted player of all time, but how many can honestly say he was an OVERACHIEVER? You can even argue he was and underachiever in my books.
1. You're the master of putting words in my mouth. First of all, I gave an example of when MJ guarded Magic, twice: all of game 1. Pippen got switched onto him because Jordan couldn't handle it. Second, I NEVER SAID Jordan wasn't a great defender, I said Pippen was better, and that Jordan couldn't guard ANYONE. You claimed he could guard anyone, and I gave an example that he couldn't guard Magic. Since he can't defend Magic, that means there is at least one person he can't guard. Therefore he can't defend anyone. You can still be a great defender without being able to guard ANYONE. Gary Payton can't guard Shaq (so Gary Payton can't guard anyone). Does that mean Payton's not a great defender? Third, I NEVER SAID Magic was as good a scorer as Jordan, I said he "could score in bunches," which you denied. I said Wilt was a better scorer than Jordan, Pippen was a better defender, Oscar and Magic were more complete players, and Magic could score in bunches. Amazing how you managed to answer none of those and instead MAKE UP THINGS I SUPPOSEDLY SAID TO ARGUE AGAINST. If you're going to debate ANYONE in ANYTHING, the first thing you need to learn is to COMPREHEND what you READ. 2. I disagree. He had 17 games before the playoffs started, but lost in the second round in 6 games. Now, Wilt... he was injured for nearly the entire 1970 season. Played only 12 games total. Then he came back for the playoffs, and brought his team all the way to game 7 of the finals before losing. Yet somehow, the media says Jordan was "rusty" and that that season "didn't count" to the point where a lot of people don't even know Jordan came back that season. Wilt? Well he's a "choker," of course. Jordan's "greatness" is simply blown out of proportion, and history makes excuses for him. 3. Funny, you never answered my question as to whether you've seen Wilt play when he wasn't on the Lakers. If that's what you're basing your opinion on, then you better see Wilt play first. And only the guys of yesteryear saw Wilt AND Shaq play, the new guys have seen Shaq but not Wilt. Who would you trust to give an opinion, someone who has seen both sides or someone who has seen one? Then I guess we can't ask Drobber or Hakeem, can we? 4. Yes, I do see double-teams and rotations in Wilt's era, and I don't really care either. Wilt demonstated that he was a greater physical specimen than Shaq and that he had more basketball skills. Yeah, great, Shaq's fatter. Auerbach (who played against neither, but saw both play, so there's no inherent bias) said Wilt was "at least as strong as Shaq," and it's been clearly recorded that Wilt was more athletic. As I already said, yes Wilt would score less today, but he would still lead the league. 5. And it's ESPECIALLY hard to argue when one person (you) is constantly claiming the other (me) asserted things they did not assert. 6. Overachiever? OVERACHIEVER? Now we're penalizing players for having physical gifts? Dolph Schayes must be in the running for greatest ever then (not to mention Bird). "Had the will and passion of no other?" He had more passion than Bird? Really? Then why didn't he play until he physically couldn't anymore? Look, it's simple. Hardware? Russell. Individual achievements? Wilt. Hardware AND individual achievements? Kareem.
