don't want to rub it in cabbage, but another example of "practice" can do a lot (even richard hamilton said so). for 2 straight yrs 03-04 to 04-05 - shot 26% and 30% from 3s. the next 3 yrs??? 05-06 - 46% 06-07 35% 07-08 44% i guess making around 45% of your 3s, after making just 26% a few yrs ago is not "that much better." guess you can't improve that much with practice to where he's now known as one of hte best 3pt shooters in the NBA? hell, they even put him in the all-star 3pt shooting contest? oh no, it's an innate quality. again, sorry didn't wanna rub it in too hard.
God. I don't even know how to argue with someone like you. The basis of your argument is centered around this weak strawman that I completely dismissed practice as a factor in the equation. Yet all of the evidence you supply is of practice equating to improvement. WTF? Look dude, I don't know what kind of utopia you live in, but few things in life follow a direct linear causal relationship to the greatest degree. You can work out just as much as a world class bodybuilder, but for other reasons, he will have a better physique. Two mathematicians can practice math at an equal amount, but the world-class one will be better at a certain point due to external, maybe god-given factors. Yes, we improve at everything up to a certain level through repetition/practice, but at a certain point there is inherent potential that sets a limit on certain people and allows others to excel. NOW, you're trying to extrapolate that relationship onto the highest stage through evidence of yourself in the park getting better? Ummm. no.
I don't know who I should vote for. I don't want to vote for Vince just because I hate the way Iverson flops around on offense trying to draw foul. I remember it was last year, I believe, th Rockets where in Denver and Rafer was on A.I. and made a casual swipe at the ball, not getting the ball or Iverson. A.I. then proceeds to act like he had just gotten clobbered even though clearly he hadn't been touched and looses control of the ball, Rafer picks it up for and easy layup at the other end. Then Iverson starts yelling at the ref for the better part of the next two offensive possessions. I remember feeling sorta embarrassed by the modern advent of basketball at that point where its athletes feel so entitled to pull off these type of shenanigans. Iverson has always embraced the whole, I'm a warrior on the court persona, but in reality he is a big part of whats wrong with the NBA as far as what goes on on the court. On the other hand, Vince is difficult to read and seems disinterested alot of the time on the court. Its hard to say. Push?
macalu, when comparing Tmac and Steve, you have to realize that Tmac's basketball IQ is better. its safe to say now that Iverson and Carter aren't low IQ NBA players. Carter is more physically gifted than Iverson. Carter could be MVP but he's nowhere close and that's because of his 'heart'. Iverson should be nothing more than another Rafer Alston who takes more shots, but somehow he seems to lead his teams to victory. Also Iverson is older, he showed up before Carter. And despite the horrible defense of last year's Nuggets, they made the playoffs and lost to the Western Conference Champs. What did Carter do with the Nets?
lol at dudes acting like AI never ever goes to practice. How many of those "Practice?!?" incidents did he actually have? Yet, T-Mac has gotten as far as Francis has in the playoffs, first round and out.
I think heart is great, but overrated... The idea that both of these players have very little heart is absurd. How does Allen Iverson not have heart? He might have an attitude, but that is two totally different things. Iverson not practicing or wanting to train is not very new....alot of players (great ones) in the past didn't always train and practice the hardest. Some players don't have to, like the strongest guy in gym (who may not lift too much at all) or some track runner with some freakish speed. Like, somethings just come natural to people... With Vince, I would say what makes you think he doesn't have any heart. He's been on very poor team for the last few years... This thread should be locked
um, if you don't like my examples fine. i simply responded to your statement that dead-eye shooting (which is a skill, not a talent) is an innate ability, which means it's something you have or you don't, which is completely false. and let's just talk about guys at the NBA level then. richard hamilton is a great example of a guy who came in as a very ordinary if not extremely mediocre 3pt shooter but now is one of the best. kobe bryant is another example. now you're talking about math? intelligence is a talent. some people are born smart. but we're talking about shooting. not everyone is born a shooter. i'm sure steve novak at the age of 3 knows he's a born shooter i think you simply don't understand the difference b/t god-given talent and skill. jumping high, athleticism, height, raw strength/body like lebron are god-given talents/genetics where it's in your genes. shooting, if one practices enough with enough discipline, even the average can be one of the best at it.
agreed, I dont know what thacabbage is talking about...shooting is a skill, jumping is god given talent
by you're standard of bball IQ, yes, VC has a terribly low bball IQ. He is nothing more than a 6'7" Francis without the knee problems. Iverson has obviously put tons of work in at the gym to be able to take the contact and finish, to be able to fake his man for a mid-range jumper. to be one of the best conditioned athletes in the game at 33. It ain't just heart. VC doesn't have that TALENT and those SKILLS, that's why he's not as good. Heart and bball IQ are so overrated its not even funny. That's stuff affects the game on a FEW possessions. Talent, skill, and height affect the game EVERY possession. Who has more heart Ryan Bowen or Tracy Mcgrady? Yeah...that's about the only thing Bowen has him beat in. Who cares?
C'mon tmac_1, at some point, it's beyond the effort you put in, and more your God given talent. It's like that asian kid knowing all the math while you study like crazy to get it but it comes easy to him ( no racism). Some players in the league are just better shooters naturally. Can you improve it? Of course, but at some will still struggle in general like the kid studying math. Your peak as a shooter might not be as good as others.
What so hard to understand about cabbage's point? Shooting is a skill, obviously. But to be GREAT, you have to have the inborn talent. Otherwise, everybody who practice enough can be in the NBA shooting ball. It's like saying playing piano is a skill, so all you have to do is practice, practice, practice and you can be a world class virtuoso. You can be decent to good by practicing. But to be great, you have to have the talent. That's exactly what cabbage is talking about.
well thats obvious but it still doesnt change the fact that shooting is a skill...if you want to use your line of thinking we can really apply it to anything....but you cant apply that logic to things like growing taller, longer, etc... which are the only true god-given talents
plus the love of the game has to be there. You can't hide your passion or lack of passion of the game. It shows on the court. Barkley made a good point talking about Derick Coleman. He said Coleman was easily one of the best basketball players.. if he showed any love for the game.
Both players have heart. You don't get to this stage in the NBA without having heart and dedication. AI probably "shows" more heart on the basketball court in front of the paying customers than VC does. Does it really mean anything though? Uhh... I guess? I don't know.
I completely disagree with you on jumpshooting. Every great outside shooter got that way with practice practice practice. Perfecting a repetitive motion that stands up under the pressure of NBA game situations such as being contested, curling around picks, stepping back, fading away is NOT innate. Perhaps what you meant to say is there are some guys who cannot be good shooters no matter how much they try because they simply cannot master a repetitive motion. Maybe it's a matter of opinion, but I think AI has the "innate stuff" to be a great outside shooter. As much as I loved him over the years, his desire to jack up jumpers during the game wasn't matched by his dedication to improving his shot during the summer and between games. AI's ballhandling has always been his strength. He came into the NBA that way. Not to downplay it, but part of the reason his handles look so good is because he's much smaller and way quicker/faster than 99% of the players on the other team. His physical gifts account for some of why he's impossible to trap with the basketball and can get around any defender. Sure, he definitely developed them with hard work but he had them when he entered the league. If I wasn't clear, my point was on development since joining the NBA. Sorry if that wasn't clear. If you ask me, take away just a little of AI's out-of-this-world speed/quickness and he will be instantly mediocre. VC's handles improved a lot his first few years but have slacked off because he's become lazy (IMO) about his basketball skills. I would say he plateaued after about 5 years and stopped improving. (I had him on the track to greatness). But starting several years ago, he began epitomizing much of what I don't like about the NBA. A big LOL about your comment on Tracy being a girl on the court. Too bad it's true on a regular basis. 100% agree on your last paragraph. Very well said. Nothing to add.
i hope you're kidding AI plays with body parts beat up every game, I remember an article in a magazine with pics outlining how beat up he was . Vince on the other hand said he quit on his team in public, that alone ends the discussion.
