I'll bet you find Reggie Miller has hit more big shots than Kobe has. I'd still rather have Kobe. I agree with you here. Once Shaq lost motivation (particularly on the defensive side), the Lakers became vulnerable. The "best 4th quarter player" in basketball, who is the 4th best overall player right now, could not keep them at the top even with great players around him. But this seems to support the theme that Shaq was most responsible for the titles, not Kobe. They were NOT equal. Shaq pretty much swept the MVP voting all 3 times. Kobe could not even muster a co-MVP, or much of a case for one, any of the 3 titles. I don't know. The 1st title season, Kobe AND Shaq rose to the Portland series when it was in question. In the finals, Shaq was clearly the beast versus Indy. The following title the Lakers killed everyone. There was hardly any 4th quarter in doubt. The next title, Horry hits the winner in game 4 after a Kobe miss if I recall (lucky bounce saved the Lakers). My major Game 7 recollection is Sac chocking, not big shots by the Lakers. I think Fisher hit so key ones. Now I do remember Kobe playing outstanding all-around basketball throughout the Lakers recent 3 titles--no question about that. That said 1) Shaq was always the focus, and 2) I remember just as many clutch shots from Fisher and Horry. That Kobe has finished his biggest moments for his teams in a Jordanesk fashion (the number of big shots and consistency of making the right play in the highest of stakes situations) is more creative memories than reality IMO. And Lebron James is better at his age than Kobe or Jordan was. So what? You can't extrapolate he will be the better player though because you can't assume their growth as team players will be similar. Niether Kobe nor James has won an MVP in the regular season or playoffs, nor been the lead dog on a title team, until then the Jordan comparisons should stop. As far as game winning shots, like I said he doesn't have the resume of Reggie Miller. I am not going to pretend Miller is the better player though. Did Kobe shut down Hamilton? How about S Jackson? Did they move him over to stop Parker last year? How about Allen Iverson (seems to me they turned to Lue). In Pippen's case he completely destroyed Deleft Schremp, Jerome Kersey, Dan Marley, Chris Mullin, and Byran Russell, or could be moved on such diverse characters in order to take out Gary Payton, take out Reggie Miller, take out John Starks, slow Drexler, take out Kevin Johnson, take our Jeff Hornacek, etc. Phil J always used Pippen when he needed to slow any small forwards or guards, even point guards, Kobe has not showed that level of defense, and not surprisingly Phil has not used him that way. In short Kobe is a fine defender--but not on Pippen's level--and I despise Pippen truthfully. Also, Pippen may have peaked at 22 ppg with Jordan, but had what 8 boards, 5 assists, 3 steals, lower A/TO ratio (than Kobe), and a block or two. Pippen was the ultimate 2nd fiddle. I would grant you Kobe might be better than Pippen as a lead dog b/c Kobe does have a superior offensive game, but Pippen got a scrubby Bulls team (w/o Jordan) to what the semis in the east at a time the NBA was less watered down through expansion than it is today.
just to add on desertscar but as much as i hate pippin as well the first bulls ring in 91 pippin played huge when he was moved over to guard magic in game 2 on. magic had trouble starting any offense for the lakers kobe d while good is overrated imo. yeah he makes all first team but he has the least amount of votes at least last year for the all first team and at this point i believe its more of him going on name recognition and rep (much like sapp making pro bowl last year) than actual productivity in that season. he played great defense a few years back but has slacked off considerably since
Kobe Bryant is not Scottie Pippen. Pippen never won a scoring title, or came even close. Kobe is the fastest player in NBA history to 10,000 career points. He should be passing Quitten's career total sometime around his 30th birthday. If he plays to the age of, let's say, 36 while maintaining a scoring average of about 28 PPG over that span, that is approximately 26,880 points added on to the 12,215 he already has for a grand total of 39,095 career points by the age of 36. Anyway you look at it, he will surpass Pippen, Jordan, Kareem and probably Karl Malone to become the All-Time scoring champion. That alone is proof enough of his greatness. Even if he slips a little and 'only' ends up with 33 or 34,000 pts, he will still surpass Jordan. Throw in at least 3 titles and the glitz of the Lakers and you've got an All-Time Great who can be confidently mentioned in the same breath as any perimeter player to ever grace the court. I know the game is, has, and always will be dominated by the big man. But probability speaks to Kobe finishing his career chasing the greatest of individual records in his sport, much like Emmitt has and Barry is. His only legitimate challenger is Tracy. It should be fun to watch for the next 10-15 years (hopefully all of them with McGrady wearing the Rocket's Red).
Shoot me for this [defending Quitten], but the Bad Scottie we all know was known for his passing and finding Michael Quitter at any point of the court, and Mike will make the shot, so he ended up leading his team in assists. Still, I think McGrady is better. He's got better peripheral vision.
1) Do you think Kobe won't miss a game from now on? He already missed a good chunk of games because of injury. 2) Games are not determined by points only. Otherwise Malone would be the best player after Kareem retired. And it's not fair to compare Kobe and MJ's career numbers because MJ entered league at 22. Can Kobe match MJ's career average and FG%? 3) Pippen was one of the best perimeter defenders ever. Kobe is not even close to him. Pippen's impact on his team was no less than Kobe by his passing and defense.
What about Scottie's 'impact' on the Rockets, Blazers, Bulls... The last 6 years of his career have been a joke. His legacy will always be the Scottie Quitten we all know and love.
And as for Malone, while he may not be the best ever, you can certainly make a very good case that he is the best PF of all time. That puts him in the elite company of players like Wilt/Shaq/Kareem (C), Dr. J/Baylor/Bird (SF), Jordan/West (SG), and Magic/Oscar/Stockton (PG).
No. I mean you could't compare the career total of MJ and Kobe because Kobe entered the league 4 years younger. Pippen is perhaps the best second banana ever. He also led the Bulls the EC semifinal and just 1 shot from the ECF when MJ was "retired". Kobe hasn't proved he could be a great 1st option and focus of opponent defense on a contender. Up until now his achievement other than scoring is less than Pippen both as a second banana and 1st option. He could score more than MJ, but if his team is like Dominique's for the rest of his career, he won't be a top 20 player of all time. Top 10 + Malone, Stockton, Clyde, Zeke, Pippen, Moses, Barkeley, Robinson, Ewing, Duncan all led teams to titles or be a contender year in and year out.
You can't use a players ending years against them. Should I go look at Hakeem's Raptors stats? No, because that wasn't Hakeem at his best. Pippen's a future HOF'er no matter how much some of you hate him, and as for his legacy, it will be as one of the best all-around players in the last 20 years. Ask any non-Rockets (aka unbiased) fans and they'll agree.
The problem is the majority of kobe fans never seen the impact of a young scottie pippin, they just remember pippin at age 35+ when like most players age and wear and tear catch up. While kobe is a much more versatile scorer than scottie, pippin was a better team player and despite the absence of MJ was able to take that bulls team pretty far. his rebouding, passing and especially his defense are superior to kobe's. I dont like pippin at all even in his year here in houston but i am not gonna be blind to what kind of player and his capabilities were on the court. but seriously this topic needs to be revisited at the end of this season no one knows how well kobe will play night in and night out with teams focused on him as the primary option, he has lived off of having shaq drawing double teams and the exact opposite goes for tracy we wont know how good he will play now that he wont be the focus of other teams defense. come back in june when the rockets are polishing the larry o'brian trophy and we'll redo this poll
My point was the following: Scottie was drafted in '87, right? That means from 1987 until 1998, he was an unbelievable player for a total of 11 years. Which also means that he was a relatively ordinary player for a further 6 years after that (98-04), right? Well, consider what a further career track would be for Kobe: He has already put in a solid six years...and has accumulated about 12,000 pts and 3 rings along the way. That means he would be hitting Scottie's peak in another 5 years...which would make Kobe the ripe old age of 29. If you believe Kobe will peak at the age of 29, go ahead. I believe his work ethic will keep him among the top in the league until at least his 35th birthday, which means his career has a chance to extend a further half-decade of greatness beyond Pippen's reign.
I don't think so at all. Very few guards maintain their level of play into their 30s, especially mid or late 30s. The exceptions are guys like Stockton, Magic and Jordan who are phenoms in seeing things happen on the court and mental aspects of the game or pure shooters. There is almost no chance Kobe at 35 is near as effective as the player today. Little chance Kobe at 32 even. Once he losses even a little quickness and explosiveness off the floor, which is what most of his oppertunnities are created from, he will not be among the best players in the league. Same thing happened to Pippen and Nique Wilkens. Their games were so based on phenom athleticism that once it starts going, it goes fast, and the player becomes just good instead of great very quickly. I think AI, Carter, Tmac and Kobe all fit this model where athleticsm is their A1 creater of their oppertunnities. If any Tmac has a better chance to last longer because he is taller and probably a little better pure shooter than Kobe. BTW Jordan at 24 had the following season: 37PPG (48%FG) 5R 5A 3St 1.5B Jordan has a career Fg% of 50% and 49% in the playoffs Kobe at 24 had: 30PPG (45%FG) 7R 6A 1.5St .6B Kobe has a career Fg% of 45% and an extremely pedistrian 43% in the playoffs. There is a 1/100 chance Kobe will match what Jordan did 24 (at any age) and less of a chance than that Kobe will match Jordan's regular season and playoff career. I am not being biased here, I'd say the same thing about Tmac. It will take 100 or so guys with Tmacs or Kobes talent coming up the pipe for one to meld it into the dominant force Jordan was and have that kind of about flawless career. In the history of the NBA there has never been any other guard to have the impact Jordan did. Some great guards have close to his athleticsm in a guy that size or taller (Tmac, Kobe), some great guards have his court brain and mental toughness (Stockton, Magic, Isiah), and some have his inate scoring instincts (Iverson, Gervin), none so far have it all rolled into 1 total package like he did.
I have a paper and dice game called NBA One on One that alllows you to match up different players in a one on one game. I did this with Hakeem and Shaq in the Fantasy Sports Forum and Hakeem came out on top. The game has about 300 current and former players rated. Anyway, here's Kobe v TMac. First player to 15 (by ones) wins. The player must win by 2. TMac came out a little slow at first and Kobe was on fire, but TMac found his shot and the game was went back and forth until it was tied at 8-8. While TMac once again struggled a bit with his shot, Kobe hit 4 in a row to take a 13-10 lead. After making it 13-11, TMac stripped Kobe of the ball and hit his shot to make it 13-12. Kobe then bounced the ball off his own leg for the turnover. Looking to tie it up, TMac's shot was blocked by Kobe. TMac got it back, but was nearly stripped of the ball before being forced to take an off-balance jumper. The ball found the net and the game was tied at 13. Kobe sunk his next shot as did TMac to make it a 14-14. Kobe took a 15-14 lead on the next possession. TMac drove the lane to tie it up with a lay up, but the ball rattled around and then off the rim. Looking to win the game, Kobe calmly went to the shake and bake move and the ball found nothing but net. Kobe wins 16-14. FG-FGA = Kobe 15-22, TMac 14-23 FT-FTA = Kobe 1-1, TMac 0-1 Fouls = Kobe 1, TMAc 1 Reb-OffReb = Kobe 8-0, TMac 7-1 Blocks = Kobe 1, TMac 1 Steals = TMac 1 Dunks = Kobe 2 Turnovers = Kobe 2, TMac 1
I still think you are vastly underrating Kobe's drive and will to excel. This is not the kind of guy that lays around in the offseason on vacation at the beach. Kobe is among the most dedicated players in all of basketball. He constantly works to improve his game. Now that the distractions of teammates and lawsuits are gone, he can refocus on basketball the way he did before. Kobe keeps himself in fantastic shape, again like Jordan, and I see no signs that he has any more of a chance of suffering a career-threatening injury than any other player. Whether or not you agree with his personality, you cannot question his work ethic. He is a year-round athlete in the mold of Jerry Rice, Roger Clemens and even Michael himself.
Not as much as this does... http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2004031513 LA Lakers 113, Orlando 110, OT Preview - Box Score - Recap By JOHN NADEL, AP Sports Writer March 16, 2004 LOS ANGELES (AP) -- After coming up with one of the NBA's most notable offensive performances of the season, Kobe Bryant preferred to talk about his defensive effort. Bryant scored 26 of his 38 points in the fourth quarter and overtime, and put the clamps on Tracy McGrady during that time as the Los Angeles Lakers rallied to beat the Orlando Magic 113-110 Monday night. Shaquille O'Neal had 27 points and a season-high 23 rebounds for the Lakers, who overcame a 19-point deficit late in the third period thanks mainly to Bryant, who scored all but one of his points after halftime. McGrady, the NBA's leading scorer, had 37 points to give him 139 in the last three games. But he scored only five in the fourth quarter and overtime, when he was guarded by Bryant. "I think of myself as a throwback -- not only can I score the basketball, I can keep people from scoring,'' Bryant said. "It was very fun. I love those matchups.'' Gary Payton, who had 12 points and nine assists, made a 3-pointer from the left corner with 1:44 remaining to snap a 110-all tie and complete the scoring. DeShawn Stevenson's 3-pointer at the buzzer fell far short. Juwan Howard had a season-high 29 points and nine rebounds and Stevenson scored 18 for the Magic. McGrady also had seven rebounds and 10 assists. Bryant guarded McGrady only occasionally until the fourth quarter. "He wanted to guard McGrady coming out of halftime, but I felt like we needed his offense,'' Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. "But he really scored most of his points while he was guarding McGrady.'' McGrady said he looks forward to playing against Bryant. "It's a challenge, and you've just got to step up to his level,'' he said. "When you're one of the elite players in the league, sometimes you can get away with things on the defensive end that a lot of people can't get away with. "But he's great on individual defense. He does a great job moving his feet, moving his hands, and he's quick.'' Bryant scored the last 10 points of the fourth quarter, capped by a left-handed layup with 41.5 seconds remaining to tie it at 102 and force overtime. McGrady and Bryant each missed shots after that. The Magic got the ball back with 1.8 seconds left and McGrady made a wild bank shot from about 25 feet away, but he didn't release it before time expired. Bryant had the Lakers' final 15 points and 24 of their 29 in the quarter. His 24 points tied a franchise record for points in a quarter set by Elgin Baylor in 1960 and equaled by Jerry West two years later. "That's cool, man. That's great company,'' Bryant said. Karl Malone, playing his first home game and third overall since being sidelined nearly three months with a knee injury, pointed to Bryant's defense as a key to the comeback victory. "That's definitely the best defense I've seen him play since I've been here,'' Malone said. "In overtime, everybody had a hand in it. He got us to overtime.'' The game was similar to the one between the teams in Orlando last month, when the Lakers trailed by 18 points in the third quarter and 14 entering the final period before rallying for a 98-96 victory. The Magic led 88-73 entering the fourth quarter in this game. By winning for the sixth time in eight games, the Lakers (44-23) moved a season-high 21 games over .500 and into third place in the Western Conference, a half-game ahead of San Antonio. The loss was the sixth in eight games for the Magic (19-50), who are an NBA-high 31 games below .500. A basket by Bryant early in the third quarter -- just his second in 10 attempts -- cut Orlando's lead to seven points. But the Magic responded by going on an 20-8 run for an 87-68 lead with 1 1/2 minutes left in the period. McGrady had 10 points and Howard six during thespurt.
Excellent post Jumpman... A perfect microchosm of almost all I was saying. A. Shaq by himself wins the Lakers nothing. He needs Kobe as much as Kobe needs him. Case in point: while Kobe struggles in the 1st half (1 pt) the Lakers struggle; when Kobe catches fire and scores 24 4th-quarter points, the Lakers pull off a huge comeback. "Shaquille O'Neal had 27 points and a season-high 23 rebounds for the Lakers, who overcame a 19-point deficit late in the third period thanks mainly to Bryant, who scored all but one of his points after halftime." B. Kobe always rises to the occasion. Tmac got all his points early, when the defense was easier and there was less pressure. Late, with the game on the line and Kobe guarding him every possesion, Tmac managed 5 4th-quarter points while Kobe poured in 24 of his own AND shut down McGrady on the other end. Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. "But he really scored most of his points while he was guarding McGrady.'' "Bryant had the Lakers' final 15 points and 24 of their 29 in the quarter. His 24 points tied a franchise record for points in a quarter set by Elgin Baylor in 1960 and equaled by Jerry West two years later." Again, excellent post Jumpman... This game is the perfect example of the difference between Tmac and Kobe.
This is also a perfect example that Kobe took 3 qts off while Shaq kept the team in the game. Kobe then turned on in the 4th qt when everyone was tired and he could easily dominate. Excellent post Jumpman... See, it can be interpreted both ways. Also, you need to ask yourself. Why Kobe + Shaq needed a big 4 th qt comback to beat last year's Magic? Does that mean Kobe + Shaq = TMac?
Blah, Blah, Blah. Let's see what happens this season before we conclude how different Kobe and T-Mac are.
