I was just pondering that yesternight. If asked to choose between KG, TMAC and Kobe to start a franchize who would I choose? KG came out tops for me. He has it all. Everything I can ask for in a player including the corresponding and matching demeanor of a superstar. Kobe was still 3rd for me - with or without tmac on our team.
Anyone who thinks Kobe is better than TD, KG or Shaq doesn't watch team basketball very closely. Kobe might be better than Tmac, but there is no way he is better than Tim Duncan, or the other two. Also, crediting 3 titles to Kobe is like crediting 6 titles to Pippen. The truth is we all know who the horse was who carried those teams and is wasn't those guys, even the idiots in the media figured that out correctly in their finals MVP voting. It is a whole lot different to be your teams second banana and only need exert yourself in spurts, than have to be a workhorse the whole other team is aiming to stop but still can't. This year will give us some room to compare Tmac and Kobe now they are in close to opposite situations--who I do think have pretty much slam dunk cases as the 4th and 5th best player in no particular order yet. Can Kobe be the key player a great team? Can Tmac be a great player on a great team? We will find out. I personally think they are really close to equal--and I don't think either player can almost singled handedly carry a team like Tim Duncan can do for instance.
Like snowmt said, he played it in the WCF, and he's played it in all-star games too. I didn't say he was a great PG, but he has the handles and common sense to run the point for a while if needed. So yeah, he can play every position.
I saw that game. But it's hardly something you can do on a consistent basis, like with Magic and his ability to play all five positions. If you're just going to use "played parts of a game" as standard, then Kobe has played PG quite a few times in the past. Yet you say that he can play the 2 and the 3. Do you honestly believe that KG would make a better full-time PG than Kobe?
BOTH Byant and Tracy can do more things on a basketball court than Duncan and Shaq, Bryant can do about as much as KG, Tracy can too once he starts playing award winning defense and starts playing well in the clutch like Bryant and Garnett. The difference in Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe is that the other two dominate most of the time, Bryant and Tracy still have more talent though. So what? Tell me what Jordan and Shaq did without Pippen and Bryant, hmm... Jordan couldn't even get a team over .500 and Shaq was getting swept from the playoffs every single season. Jordan deserved his Finals MVP, but Shaq, come on now, name a BIG that can't win Finals MVP against the LEAST. The most valuable Laker throughout the Western Conference Playoffs was Kobe Bryant, every championship season except the first he was the one finishing off teams. Since when are the Lakers a great team? Maybe, they were a sure playoff team right after the Shaq trade, they had a decent chance at making them after the Payton trade, now that they ended up getting ripped off they really need Bryant and Odom to have All NBA First Team type seasons to even sniff the playoffs. That's not great, he'll have his greatest individual season though, but to make the playoffs the Lakers best chance will probably be winning their division. If you want to compare them next season then do it right, Tracy has his big man now, will he make them championship contenders, like the Lakers were every season with Bryant and his big man? Bryant has his team now, will he make the Lakers a mediocre team, like the Magic were in Tracy's good years there?
Kobe is in MJ's status. He just hangs in the air. looks at you, and the triple pumps in a shot. No fear either. I was watching the close of the Bulls championship aganist Portland and it was hilarious. Final shot. Jordan is double covered and posting from three point line. No way he could the ball and shoot. So Pippen passes to Grant two feet from hoop who misses. Jordan lectures pippen on the sideline for not getting him the ball. Hilarious.
Kobe is a guard ofcourse he is a better PG then Garnett. But can Kobe play PF or Center? Of course not. Garnett is much better all round. he is the best all round player in the nba. Garnett is a much better PG then Kobe is Center or PF. Garnett is the only player who has the abbility to play al the 5 positions.
Sure Jordan and Shaq won nothing before their super side-kick. But it just shows no superstar could do anything without a good supporting cast. Jordan and Shaq were still the center piece of their championship team and made game easier for teammates. They were irreplacable while the supporting cast can be easily replaced. Their sidekick can also be exchanged with quite a few players in the league. So you honestly believe Yao right now is at Shaq's 99-02 level. I never thought you think so highly of Yao from your previous posts.
Tmac is better because he is a Rocket. I am a Rocket fan. There is no absolute objective answer. So give the fan answer.
I can't think of a player in the NBA that can do what Pippen did for the Bulls during their championship years, can you? Win championships with Shaq... AI, after him maybe Paul Pierce, that's about it though. Shaq needs someone capable of making big plays in the 4th quarter, that's been the case with him his whole career, Kobe was BY FAR the best guy he's ever had and he wins titles. So sure put in Iverson instead of Bryant and the Lakers still win rings, put in Pierce and they should still win a couple maybe, not as easily as they did with Bryant though. No I don't, but he is the big man Tracy picked to win a ring with, isn't he? Although I don't think Yao's an elite big man (yet) he is exactly what Tracy wanted. I'm just trying to make the comparison fair, it's not when you expect Bryant to prove himself and make an average Laker team a championship contender, and Tracy doesn't have to make the Rockets championship contenders, not champions, contenders.
Jordan/Shaq + a good supporting cast = contender You can't say that for Pippen and Kobe. They are not proven. Shaq doesn't need Kobe to be a contender. Need a clutch player? Fisher and Horry are both clutch on Shaq(or Hakeem)'s team. In fact, Shaq and Hakeem have made a lot of players clutch. I remember some Kobe's clutch game. He passed the ball in the first half, then turned on in the 3rd and most important, 4th qt. He had the luxury to take 2 or 3 qts off. TMac didn't.
This question really has to be asked two ways: Who would win one-on-one, and who would you pick to start a franchise. People are looking at careers to determine who the best player and that is kind of hard to tell based on the teams these players have been on.
The best way I've heard that described is that it wouldn't work out because he wouldn't shoot as much as he did, so he wouldn't score as much, would have to be the playmaker all the time, would have much tougher players to guard, would have to listen to everyone say Shaq is the only reason he wins and that he's overrated, could he handle all of that? What do you mean they're not proven? Kobe Bryant can retire right now and still be a first ballot hall of famer, Pippen could of retired right after his 6th championship and still be a first ballot hall of famer. Put Kobe in for Jordan in any of those championship teams and they are still championship contenders, they could of easily win at least 4 titles as well, not because Bryant is as good Jordan, but because those teams were so loaded that he didn't have to be. That's true, but he did need him to be a champion. They're clutch SHOOTERS, just like Steve Kerr and John Paxon. Tracy couldn't pass the ball in the 1st half? His all time best games were when he would do EXACTLY that and finish off a team in the 4th quarter, not when he thought he had to do everything for the Magic from the tip off to the 4th quarter buzzer, that was his biggest problem in the playoffs. They weren't a contending team, but they always had talent, always were among the league leaders in points per game so he had guys to pass to, even last season he did. Hopefully he gets the team (Rockets) involved through the first 3 quarters and finishes off the opponent in the 4th, that way even if they do try and take him out of the game with double teams and zones, the rest of the team won't be cold and they'll hit their shots, but it will still be him finishing off teams.
Well my definition of the best basketball player is not their "talent", or dribbling, shooting and other individual basketball skills, but the degree they 'dominate most of the time" and whether they actually lead their teams to Ws despite opponents doing all they can to contain them first. Thus KG, TD and Shaq are better basketball players than Kobe or Tmac. But it sounds like in your "best basketball player" mindset one would conclude Kobe is not only a a better player than the 3 previously mentioned but also Kareem, Wilt and Hakeem because he can jump higher, dribble better, or see the floor better. So because you are a big guy you should be punished in MVP voting? The most dominant and effective player on the best team is the MVP. Usually that is a big, but Jordan, Dumars, Thomas and Billips showed it isn't always the case. If Kobe was the better, more central force responsible for the Lakers titles he would have been the MVP period, he wasn't. Also, someone has to get the team in position to win. Just because the winning shot was by Kobe, Paxton, Maxwell, Elie, Kenny, Horry or Kerr does not mean they were the real MVPs--the players who carried them on their back most of the time to put them in a position to win are the MVPS. The Lakers lost Shaq, Malone (I assume), Payton and Fisher, right, of whom the latter two players had among their worst years ever. They added Odom, Grant, Divic, Butler, Atkins, Mihm, Banks and Jones. Considering Odom is a borderlline all-star, and Grant does much of what Karl does now, Kobe has plenty to work with. If fact I would say Kobe has close to the supporting cast Jordan did his last title or two (Pippen was really slowed with injuries and wear), and probably better than most of the casts Duncan and Hakeem won titles with. All I am saying is we need next season to make any kind of comparison between Tmac and Kobe. Kobe has never had to carry a team, a completely different burden he has had to face than just being a go to go to close out games or beign a change of pace. (In fact when Shaq was injured in years past Kobe's record was extremely poor if I recall--not a good sign). And while it is not a 1 on 1 comparison to see how Tmac plays with Yao (Yao is no Shaq yet--and I suspect Tmac and Yao they will have close to equal roles in the grand scheme), I do agree it provides some important information about how great of a team basketball player Tmac is. Truly great players have been the centerpieces of teams filled predominantly with role players that have won championships. Jordan has done it, Hakeem has done it, Duncan has done it, and Shaq has done it. Tmac pretty much showed (to me) he isn't so great he can lead a team to advance in the playoffs as the sole lead banana, we will see for Kobe, I think the same thing will happen to him. But he could prove me wrong, which is why let's wait and see whether his place if more like Pippen--a super second banana--or something more like what the true giants of the game have shown.
I have no problem with your definition so you're right about that. KG can do everything that Bryant can and then some, Duncan and Shaq can't, Hakeem was better than Kobe because he could dominate on defense more than every guy we've mentioned. In the Finals he didn't have to do as much as he did in the Western Conference playoffs because the competition wasn't as tough, he basically coasted through most of the Finals because Shaq was more than enough to beat those guys. Bryant OBVIOUSLY does not belong on that list. Banks is back on the Celtics... Everyone on that list stinks outside of Odom, Divac and Butler. Grant cannot pass like Malone, he can't shoot like him either, he won't be as important to the Lakers as Malone was last season. Lets take out Jordan, Pippen, Bryant and Odom. Nobody on the Lakers compares to Dennis Rodman, Ron Harper, or Toni Kukoc, nobody can shoot like Steve Kerr, you can already trade those guys for everyone else on the Lakers and improve that team. Damn, if the Bulls would of been kept together for the next season they would of won again for sure, their older legs would of rested longer AND they didn't have to suffer through an 82 game season, it could of been so easy. Duncan had plenty of help, Hakeem is the only guy I can think of that carried their teams to a championship, Moses Malone did the same back in the day though. I agree we should wait and see...
For Duncan's 2nd title he had a PG (Parker) that despite his promise as a future player was so inconsistent in the key moments of their playoffs they had to bench him. They also had other journeyman in S Jackson, Bruce Bowen and Danny Ferry, a broken down David Robinson (worthless back), a dusted off Kevin Willis, and Malik Rose-- who nobody is willing to trade for even without compensation. Without Duncan that team would have been one of the worst teams in the league that year and far worse than this year's Lakers team without Kobe Bryant. Kobe has a lot more to work with now than Tim Duncan did that year.
Someone mentioned that what Shaq did before Bryant - He took his team to the 95 Finals, beating the Chicago Bulls(with Jordan) before falling to the Rockets. Just for ****s and giggles look at Penny Hardaway's numbers before Shaq departed, and after Shaq departed. Dominant players like O'Neal, Jordan, Duncan, Dream - these guys command so much attention they make their teammates look much better than they are - so you can't just look at their results without factoring that in.
