I am the one who posted the link to those stats; I am ethnic Chinese and I love Yao, so I am going to claim that I am pretty fair in my opinions. A good portion of the Hakeem vs Shaq games happened in Hakeem's twilight years. Therefore, you can't use those stats against Hakeem. Let me repeat my stand in a more precise manner: (1) There is no way the current Yao can beat the pre-1997 Hakeem one on one. Go buy some Hakeem videos from Half.com or Amazon.com. Most of them cost only $3 to $8. No other argument is needed here. Hakeem was a freak! (2) Hakeem is much better than Robinson in games that count. Go to NBA.com and find the stats. Jordan, Hakeem and Reggie Miller are the only star players who performed significantly better in the post seasons from 85 to 97.
Dream's game on both D and Offense was never about his height or the opponentt's height, he would slaughter any center who played him one on one. Case closed
You couldn't be more wrong. Here's the full quote from Shaq that was refered to earlier: "If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]... I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt." - Shaquille O'Neal, responding to the Blazers' complaints in the first round of the 2001 NBA playoffs http://www.clutchfans.net/quotes.cfm?moreviews=Y&startrow=31&endrow=40
I'm confused, people. Originally posted by lwong Hakeem in his second year is better than Yao right now, but not by that much. (say what??) Akeem- '85-'86 season 36.3 minutes/.526% fg/.645%ft/11.5 rb/2 ast/2 steals/3.4 Blks/2.87 TO/4 fouls/23.5 PPG Yao- '03-'04 season 33.1 minutes/.524% fg/81.3% ft/9.1 rb/1.5 ast/0.3 steals/1.9 Blks/2.49 TO/3.27 fouls/17.59 PPG Originally posted by lwong I did watch NBA games and remember the early 80's when Hakeem was still Akeem. And way before the refs stop calling travelling on his yet-to-be-developed shake and bake moves. He was great, but not yet the great center at his prime. He had many skills but outside shooting was not one of them. He was foul prone and turn-over prone. He was already the best shot-blocker at that time though. Jabar was over the hill and ................. See the above stats for both players in their 2nd year... not much difference in fouls and turnovers. Besides FT shooting, Olajuwon is overwhelmingly better. Originally posted by lwong The game has changed a great deal since then. Centers and pf's are taller, bigger and stronger than before. Duncan and perhaps Garnett would play center a generation ago. I remember the time when 6'10 skinny center were the norm. (Try that on the western conference today and see how far he can carry the team!) .................. All due respect, but did we watch the same league? Originally posted by lwong Before the zone-related rule changes, you cannot double team a man without the ball. This really hurts the big center's game and Yao's game in particular. The game scores were higher in the 80's and defense much weaker than now. .................. Again, all due respect, but don't you think the rules are more than a little different now? And overall, the competition was tougher in the '80's, with fewer teams and an amazing number of great, great players. The defense was not "much weaker"... the rules were different and the overall quality of a team's players, due to there being fewer teams and because of players having years of college coaching, was higher. The defense was outstanding. ................. Originally posted by lwong I give a lot of credit to Hakeem, playing great at center in a small/power forward frame. Which is why he can "out-quick" his man in the low post. In today's game, he will not have the bulk to play at that level. (Which is why KG is playing small/forward and TD plays PF.) Hakeem only played 68 games in his second year. ................ Again, with respect, did we watch the same league?? Hakeem didn't have "the bulk" "to play at that level"? Olajuwon was a big, tough Mo-Fo, bro. Yes, he got "bigger", but he was already strong in his second year and a real beast. He had problems with techs, having such a fiery, "take no prisoners" temperment. And as for playing 68 games, what does that have to do with anything? He was injured. Olajuwon played in all 82 games in his rookie year. I just don't see where you and some others (not many) are coming from. Sorry.
Mark Eaton played in an era without zone defense which helped his shot blocking, and I didn't equate Yao's shot blocking ability with that of Mark Eaton, I was mentioning the overall defense. Wow, another strong argument. Care to explain how having to play man to man HELPED shot blocking? Did you ever watch games predating the zone rules? All teams had to do is take Eaton's man and stand him out at the 3 point line and Eaton was forced to come out of the middle and play his man or be called for illegal defense. The new rules which allow big men to let their man go and hang out near the paint allows for many more opportunities for shot blocks.
Oh, and one other stat, that I particularly pay more attention to: Akeem -85-86': took his team to the NBA Finals where they lost to one of the greatest teams in NBA history (Larry's Celtics) Yao -03-04: to be determined It's the postseason that distinguishes the great ones from the pretenders. I think Yao has the stuff to be a great one. He takes us to the Finals and he'll be as good in my book as Dream in his second year....
holy crap ChenZhen, i thought you had at least been arguing the one on one game would be where each guy just got it in the post. i might have just thought you were completely wrong, not insane. but now you're actually using the fact they have to dribble it in as an advantage to yao? good grief man. hakeem is going to have trouble b/c he'll be actively dribbling and can't do spins as well but yao will just back it right on in apparently using all his spins. brilliant. and of course with drob, one of the best things he had going was that he could catch it and threaten the drive and if you backed off shoot it. actively dribbling would remove that double threat and force his jump shot to be of the pull up variety. but only hakeem will be hurt by dribbling apparently. man, arguing yao can hang with hakeem and even beat him 3 or 4 times out of 10. no friggin' chance and i'm done with your weak arguments in this thread.
Francis 4 Prez, this hypothetical one on one game will be played in the driveway hoop of ChenZhen's active imagination, where Hakeem is smothered by Shawn Bradley and Mark Eaton, against whom he seldom was able to break 40 points a game, can't outplay David Robinson because he lack's robinson's superior lateral movement, lacks the superior handles of Amare Stoudemire, and is simply overpowered by Yao and Shaq, who can drive past him at will because of their Iversonesqe penetration. It's a strange world, don't attempt to understand it. Simply accept that its his and move on.
I'm through trying to discuss this in a fashion that's addressing the original question. I can't see where any of the posters who support Yao vs Olajuwon, 1 on 1, even comparing them from the same stage of their careers, have attempted to respond to my posts, and to numerous others from more knowledgeable members than me, in any meaningful way... hell, to have responded at all. The only good that came out of this thread, as far as I'm concerned, is that it caused me to smile again about the early career of Hakeem. And watch that clip Sam posted a few dozen times, although I'd seen it before... but it had been awhile. And, not least, to read some fine posts from some of you folks out there who aren't living in a artificial construct peopled by a David Robinson who's a foaming at the mouth, whirling dervish and a Mark Eaton who almost toppled the NBA from it's foundations due to his greatness. Right.
Anybody old enough to remember the NBA 1-on-1 tournament from back in the '70's. It was taped and they'd show a game at halftime of the Sunday network game. Anybody remember who was in the finals?
Anyone who comes on to a Rockets fan board and tries to argue that David Robinson is better than Hakeem Olajuwon in any way, shape, or form- 1 on 1, quickness, outside shooting, etc. - is just asking for trouble. Same with comparing whether Yao Ming could hold his own against Hakeem. Hakeem Olajuwon is an institution in Houston. Regardless of his faults, it's futile to try to convince the large, large, majority of posters on this board that Hakeem is anything but the best center of all time, if not top 3. And regardless of how each fared (speaking of Robinson and Hakeem- to make a comparison between Ming and Hakeem at this point in Ming's career is pointless, that's why I'm not even addressing it), one series, the most important one, will forever define the comparison. Whether David Robinson likes it or not, in the biggest series ever against these two, when Robinson won the MVP and the Spurs had the best record in the league, Hakeem Olajuwon just flat-out dominated him. Why would every teammate of Hakeem's- Cassell, Drexler, Elie, Smith- all say the same thing if it weren't true? Why would Robinson admit the same? Good luck to anyone who tries to convince this board of Hakeem's vulnerabilities. Even if it might be true, so what? It's a moot point here and a waste of the poster's time.
Between Eaton and Yao, Eaton was a superior interior presence. Eaton blocks shots better. Yao is big and does change shots, but he's not the presence that Mark Eaton was. People attack Yao in the paint and routinely get layups and shots over Yao from within 8 feet. One of Yao's biggest problems is that he is so slow to react sometimes that he misses blocks and rebounds that look so easy to get. If you're slow to react, there's no way you're guarding Hakeem inside or outside.
HUH????????? You smarta$$es love twisting my words around don't you? Its more like Hakeem's disadvantage than anything else and that's what I'm trying to point out. All I'm saying is this: You know the classic Hakeem post up moves where he displays his brilliant footwork? You will not see nearly as much of it if they play 1 on 1 because why? It's because he has to do his post up moves off the dribble. you're right about Robinson having to pull up for his jumpers. It cuts both ways. Good point. People like you love to immediately react and say, "No frickn chance against Olajuwon 1 on 1", because Hakeem is just too fast. Hakeem is too quick. Yao is too slow for Hakeem. Instead of thinking maybe he can hang? Maybe Yao's combination of size & strength will give him trouble? Maybe Hakeem can't drive past Yao because Hakeem is not fast enough off the dribble to go past him? Maybe, just MAYBE he'll have trouble shooting over tall agile guys like Yao when posting up? SamFisher, what are you babbling about? yes I do have an active imagination. That's what we have to so since they are from a different eras playing against different type players, right? projecting and visualizing how they might play 1 on 1 is the ONLY thing you can do. Hakeem's never faced anybody like Yao before and vise versa.
Apples and oranges. Yao is quite slow to react to helpout on defense, especially if you compare him to the best help out defender of all time. This helpout defense skill will be insignificant if Hakeem and Yao playing 1 on 1. Yao tends to be better at playing 1 on 1 D. I think Yao is faster than Eaton and I think can play 1 on 1 with Hakeem a bit better because he's fast enough to defend Hakeem off the dribble. Again I don't think Yao can consistently beat Dream 1 on 1. But I do think he's got a great shot every game mostly because of his length, agility for his size, and his nice touch. But the way most of you react by saying Yao will never get the ball back if it's make it take it, and that he has absolutely no chance of hanging with Dream 1 on 1 is IGNORANT and don't know crap about 1 on 1 basketball.
Not only do the Rockets players have tunnel vision, so do the rockets fans in general! Love is blind I guess.
<i>Apples and oranges. Yao is quite slow to react to helpout on defense, especially if you compare him to the best help out defender of all time. This helpout defense skill will be insignificant if Hakeem and Yao playing 1 on 1. Yao tends to be better at playing 1 on 1 D.</i> Yao is slow to react perid. Straight up, help defense, all of the above. He simple doesn't have quick reactions. Slow reaction time doesn't make you a good 1 on 1 defender. Any center in the league that can put the ball on the floor will go past Yao. JVG covers that by making sure that help defenders converge on Yao's man after he goes past Yao. <i>I think Yao is faster than Eaton and I think can play 1 on 1 with Hakeem a bit better because he's fast enough to defend Hakeem off the dribble. </i> Why do you think that Yao is faster than Eaton? Eaton was one of the top few shot blockers in the history of the NBA. If Yao is bigger, faster and a good 1 on 1 defender, then shouldn' t he be blocking more shots than he does? Why do you say that Yao is fast enough to defend Olajuwon off the dribble? David Robinson couldn't do it, Ewing couldn't do it, Shaq couldn't do it and they were all much, muich faster than Yao and better defenders. <i> Again I don't think Yao can consistently beat Dream 1 on 1. But I do think he's got a great shot every game mostly because of his length, agility for his size, and his nice touch. </i> If Yao had to take the ball at the top of key, he'd have tremendous trouble trying to get anywhere near the basket against Olajuwon. Nobody ever had much luck putting the ball on the floor against Hakeem, let alone a 7'6" guy. I don't really see where Hakeem would have much trouble muscling Yao out of the lane just like Dampier or Ratliff do. <i>But the way most of you react by saying Yao will never get the ball back if it's make it take it, and that he has absolutely no chance of hanging with Dream 1 on 1 is IGNORANT and don't know crap about 1 on 1 basketball</i> Let me clarify for you what is ignorant and who doesn't know crap about 1 on 1 basketball. (Wow! I feel like I'm channelling the spirt of Jeff!) Saying that you have to be a slasher to be successful at 1 on 1 is just stupid. Shooters are the guys that will kill in one on one at the NBA level. Remember my earlier post when I asked if anybody remembered who won the only 1 on 1 tournament that the NBA ever held? The anwer was Geoff Petrie, the former Portland Trailblazer 2 guard that is now the GM of the Sacramento Kings. Petrie was a long range bomber, not even remotely a slasher. Who was second? Barry Clemons, another non-slasher. If you're playing one on one in your driveway, them yeah, maybe nobody can hit jumpers consistently enough to beat a guy driving to the hoop. At the NBA level, however, they have guys that shoot the ball well enough to beat anybody in one on one. The next great piece of wisdom was saying that you had to have a cross over dribble to be a successful one on one player. There's been lots of guys that didn't have cross overs that were devestating going to the hoop. Every time a guy gets to the hoop doesn' mean that he's used a cross over. It's been the same since the league started, quicker players can always attack the slower players by closing the distance between them and coming to a complete stop. At that point it's just a matter of who's first step is the quickest. They don't need a cross over, because they are already past them. That's a strategy that worked for everybody from Kevin Johnson to Hakeem. You said Hakeem couldn't drive it from the perimeter. Somebody provided a video clip of him blowing past Robinson and Bradley. What was your response? Something like "Yeah, but he can't do a cross over from left to right". Brilliant comback. You keep saying how great Robinson was going to the hoop, so provide a video clip of Robinson's killer crossover. Heck, for that matter, how about any video at all of Robinson putting the ball on the floor and going around somebody from more than 15 feet. You keep calling Robinson a slasher, when the rest of the basketball world calls him a jumpshooter. Telling us that Hakeem's game wasn't suited to one on one is ridiculous. Alot of us were here watching Hakeem play nothing but one on one before each Rocket game. He went at big guys, he went at guards. <i>You will not see nearly as much of it if they play 1 on 1 because why? It's because he has to do his post up moves off the dribble. </i> Another pearl of wisdom. If a defender couldn't stop Hakeem in the post, what prevents him from using those moves? He can't back the guy down. He can'g blow past the guy off the dribble and then simply stop? Unless you're going to tell me that the defender is going to take the ball away from him, then he could go anywhere on the court and take any shot that he though would be effective. The difference is that Olajuwon could beat you inside, outside or off the dribble. Nobody HAS to do anything off of the dribble.
I can't believe people are still arguing about a question that is fundamentally unanswerable. Say the game is ones and twos to 16, make it take it. Yao now versus Hakeem in his prime -- 16-5 Hakeem Hakeem now versus Yao in his prime -- 16-5 Yao, even if Yao improves no further. Yao in his prime vs. Hakee in his prime -- who's to say?
