Carr is gonna be BIG. He will have accomplished some great things by the time his career is over. We just keep him, Andre, and DD together - oh man...
Since neither man won a championship, or appeared in a Super Bowl, on what are you basing Campbell's superiority? I'm a big Earl fan, and Luv Ya Blue, but he played 7 NFL seasons and retired at 30. In only 3 seasons were his teams competitive (78-80) and the Oilers never won even a division title during his tenure. Warren Moon played 17 seasons in the NFL and retired at 44 - after spending 6 seasons winning titles in the CFL. If there wasn't a bias against black quarterbacks at the time, he quite possibly would have been ranked #1 all-time in passing yards, completions, and touchdowns. As it is, he's top-5 in all those categories.
What about Gifford Nielson? The greatest side arm QB this city has ever known. I'd have to vote Kelly 1st, Blanda 2nd, Stabler 3rd, & Moon 4th. Moon's 4th, because he never led us to a Superbowl. Superbowl wins determine a QB's rank in history. Kelly led his team to 4 consecutive SB's & very few people recognize that accomplishment, because he never won one. Fran Tarkenton is in the same boat (3 SB's & no wins).
seriously, sam....warren isn't in the same league as earl. not even close. i loved warren moon...but he was no earl campbell. earl has a legit argument that he's the best running back of all time...not saying that's a "no-brainer" argument, but you can make it pretty well. warren doesn't rank among the greatest to have ever played his position.
RBs are less than QBs because few can maintain high level over long periods of time. Earl was better at his best than Moon was at his best, but how can one compare the relatively short window of The Rose to the decades crossing enduring successes of WM? Besides, is this not a QB thread???
I'm still not sure why Moon "doesn't rank among the greatest to have ever played his position". By the numbers he put up, he does. His arm was incredible, and he was a gutty player. I think he's greatly unappreciated in Houston because he's been deemed the fall-guy for the Oiler's postseason failures. Dan Marino never won a title, and Elway wouldn't have either if Terrell Davis didn't emerge as the NFL's most dominant offensive player for a few seasons. Part of greatness lies in logevity, and Warren Moon had a great career for 20+ years. I don't think you can discount that, even if he didn't have a single season you'd point to as "the greatest ever."
i'm a moon fan...but if you're asking me if i want him with the ball on the last drive of the game where i need a TD...i'm saying no. stats in a run and shoot system are not relevant. the guy passed on 3 downs nearly every series. don't get me wrong...i like moon a lot...and i think he was a very good QB. but he had TONS of talent on that team...and they never got over the hump. elway, by your comparison, took his team to 2 super bowls with a cast of nobodies around him...he lost those...and you're right, when he had more support he won. but you could always count on elway when you needed him most. if i were starting a team and could take either player, i'd take elway every day of the week and twice on sunday.
I think I'd prefer Elway too, but it's unfair to dismiss Moon as a "system" quarterback, any more than it is to dismiss Marino. Both threw the ball 80% of the time, and both were successful at it. And when Moon moved on to non-run&shoot teams in Minnesota and Seattle he aquitted himself well, making the pro bowl and improving those teams. Cody Carlson et. al, on the other hand, sucked at running the run and shoot, and the system imploded without Moon. I'm not sure, either, than Moon's Oilers teams were that talented, at least on the offensive side of the ball. Lorenzo White was not a great running back, and the receivers with the exception of Haywood Jeffries were too small to be very effective in any offense other than the R&S. None of those guys did much of anything after leaving the Oilers. Matthews and Munchak were the foundation of a good offensive line that unfortunately fell apart by the end of the Oilers' run.
i'm saying that moon had more talent on both sides of the ball than elway did when he took those teams to the super bowl and lost. the oilers had more pro bowlers than any team had ever had up to that point in the early 90's. i'm not saying moon was entirely a system QB...but i do think it explains the records. i haven't looked at the stats, but i'd bet that marino didn't pass near as many times per game as moon did...or per series...or whatever. my greatest QB's of my lifetime: 1. elway 2. montana 3. favre 4. marino
Looking at just Moon's Houston years, he passed 4546 times in 141 games, for an average of 32.2 passing attempts per game. Marino passed 8358 times in his career in 242 games, for an average of 34.5 passing attempts per game. Sure, the run and shoot was a pass-first offense, but that's often the case for quarterback-centric offenses. To take a current example, Brett Favre has averaged 33.8 passing attempts per game during his career with the Packers.
how about passing attempts per offensive play? i'm thinking that's probably a better indicator. don't know if you can find that stat, though.
THE number 1. How can someone say that Warren Moon is not one of the greatest to ever play the position? THE most yards ever recorded by a QB in pro-football? How is that not a greatest ever?
where did that get us? we won a grand total of what...2...maybe 3 playoff games while Warren was at the lead. i remember we beat the jets in a wild card game one year...but we never once even advanced to the conference finals. on a team stocked with talent. that isn't warren's fault alone...of course i know that...but there's no way that in the NFL you can compare the accomplishments of Warren to guys like Elway or Montana. by the way...you're cheating!! the most yards ever recorded includes his stint in Canadian football. I don't give a rip about Canadian football!! Marino is the man if we're talking raw yardage stats.
Scrubs: David Klingler Cody Carlson Billy Joe Tolliver Sean Salisbury Decent: Chris Chandler Andre Ware Bucky Richardson Good: Steve McNair Really Good: Jim Kelly Warren Moon Before My Time: Dan Pastorini George Blanda Ken Stabler --- If I was forced to pick one, I'd go with Moon. People don't associate Kelly with Houston anyways.
when you needed five yards to keep a drive alive and wind down the clock late in the game, earl would get you 7. and he'd do it with everyone in the building fully aware the team was gonna call his number. otoh, if you needed a key completion, moon seemed to find a way to throw the back-breaking interception. i don't give a flip about stats. i watched every game of both eras and there's no comparison between the two. like MM said, if the game was on the line, i'd hate to have to give the ball to moon.
By far, Warren Moon... The damn Buffalo game killed us, but for consistency, talent, the adversity he had to go through before coming into the NFL, he's the guy... The Beyond the Glory of Moon is really good...
