Who is the better player, Aaron Brooks or Steve Francis?

This.....

Steve had his time, and now it is gone.

Move on.

DD

 

My granddaughter has a higher basketball IQ then Steve Francis. There was probably not 10 games during the whole time Francis played for the Rockets that I missed and I guarantee you that AB does not make even a quarter of the boneheaded mistakes that Steve made over and over during the same damn game, night in and night out. How often do you see AB go to the corner pick up his dribble and get trapped only to turn the ball over or have to waste a time out? That was Steve's favorite play. Calvin used to complain about it every game.

How often do you see AB waste all 8 seconds getting the ball over have court? You don't. Francis took so much time getting the ball over the mid court line on most nights the Rockets were routinely down to 16 seconds on the shot clock by the time Francis started pounding the air out of the ball in the half court offense.

Francis better at defense? Light years? Really? Steve was not light years ahead of anyone on defense. AB is not good at defense at all but Francis was known for not even realizing your were suppose to play defense. How many times did we see a nobody point guard have a career scoring night against Steve? Lots. I will never forget Luke Ridnour schooling Steve or how anyone that claimed Steve Nash might be better would get flamed.

When did Steve get the rep of being a good passer? That certainly was not his rep back then. As a matter of fact most people claimed he was a shooting guard in a point guards body because he did not see the floor well and did not pass all that well. The only reason he was a point guard was because he was only 6'3" and not 6'5" or taller. AB and Steve are both more of a shooting guard trapped in a point guards body. And do you not remember (or maybe you just were not watching at that time) all complaining about Steve not knowing how to make an entry pass to Yao? or anyone else? Don't use entry passes as your arguing point.

And don't say Steve is tougher than AB. Where is your proof? Is that just some cliche thing to say? It must be because the facts are contrary to your statement. Steve absolutely was a tough cat but how many games has Brooks missed in his career? When Steve was a Rocket we saw him miss a ton of games due to migraines and plantar fasciitis. I don't think AB has ever missed a game due to injury.

Francis was better at dunking than AB and much better at rebounding than AB but nothing else. This is AB's third year in the league and he is averaging:
20 point per game, 5.1 assists per game, 2.8 turnovers a game, 43% Field Goals, 40% 3pt shooting, 2.6 rebounds per game and 1 steal per game. No games missed.

Francis was averaging:
21 points per game, 6.4 assists per game, 3.9 turnovers a game, 42% field goal percentage, 32% 3pt shooting, 7 rebounds a game and 1 steal a game. 25 games missed due to planar fasciitis or head aches.

Steve is certainly better at rebounding and turning the ball. The one stat you will never find is how many possessions Steve cost his team by pounding the air out of the ball and then taking a last second shot that had no chance to go in because the shot clock was winding down.

Francis was all flash and no substance. He came into the NBA as a star based on potential and athleticism but he was always an absolute turn over machine that never got better or learned from his mistakes.

Brooks came into the league as a nobody 2nd round undersized pick with no expectations from the fans. He has done nothing but get better and better every year. AB's basketball IQ is way way better than Steve Francis BBIQ ever was. The sad thing is that you would have a hard time ever finding a basketball player that had a lower basketball IQ than Steve Francis.

Edge: Aaron Brooks.

 

I think you may have just figured out why Steve had so many migraines throughout his career! Funny! :grin:

 

These guys are actually more similar than you think. Both are truly undersized SGs than PGs. Both have a knack to score the ball and both are average at running the point. Steve was our goto guy, and Brooks is our goto guy now. Brooks is quicker and the better shooter. While Steve had better handles, stronger, more athletic and was the better passer. Lowry actually reminds me of Steve with his relentless attacks to the rim.

The thing about Brooks, we haven't seen him in his prime yet. There is a really good chance he gets even better and even a chance that he becomes better than Steve in his prime. I think the only thing that stops that is injuries. Lets hope he doesn't have bad luck like Stevie did.

 

In their 3rd years AB is at 2.8 and Francis was at 3.9 and yes that is substantial. Saying that there is almost no difference between 3.9 turnovers game and 2.8 a game is like saying there is almost no difference between a .260 and a .300 hitter because its only one extra base hit a week.

What the Stats don't account for is all the times Steve dribbled out the shot clock only to take a last second shot that had no chance of going in. Or all the times Steve walked the ball up the court not starting the Rockets half court offense until there were only 16 seconds on the shot clock.

Bad decision making is not just about 1 extra turnover a game. Its also about bad game management and Steve's was the worst.

 

Pretty much sums it up right there. AB plays to win the games which to me is much more important than how awesome SF3's highlight reels are going to look on ESPN.

 

People also need to remember the teams these guys played on. The best players Steve played with were an aging Hakeem, Cuttino and a Young Yao. Being on a better team will make you look better/play better also. Yes, Steve did a lot of dribbling and ISOs but look at his teammates. Rudy T was actually the brain behind ISO ball. Its not like Rudy gave him a game plan and Steve just said F it and do whatever he wants. Rudy felt ISOs with our best players were the best chance at winning games for those teams. I don't blame him. Hell, we see Brooks go ISO and dribble out the shot clocks at times too.

Steve was an elite player in his prime. People forget his playoff performance against the Lakers. He damn near averaged a triple double, 19/7/7 and made the series closer than it looked. Easily one of the Top 20, maybe even Top 10 players at the height of his career. Our team now is better than Steve's playoff team and this team is on the outside looking in on the playoffs, That says a lot about Steve carrying his team.

 

I don't think YOU know what a Stevie's crossover was.

Stevie was actually not that good. His crossover was quick but only because his hand/ wrist action was quick, not because he was a good dribbler.

How many times did you see Stevie did the crossover, i.e. start right, switch to left, clearly got his man beat but dribble the ball back to the right into the defender again?

Go find his video and check it out.

 

Francis's crossover was surpassed only by Iverson's. And it's impossible to have that quick of a crossover without being a good dribbler. It means he had great ball control, great coordination, great footwork, and great body control.

Think about it. What you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.

How about you supply your own evidence to support your claims? Good luck with that. People don't usually upload videos of broken plays unless it results in some sort of highlight.

If Brooks' crossover was as effective as some of you think, it would be a staple in his offensive repertoire. However, we only see it (successfully) once every few games.

 

If you don't know what I am talking about then you clearly have not seen enough of Stevie.

 

It does not need to be used over and over with him because he can drive and shoot as well. He has the little mid range game and is a superior 3pt shooter with much more range than Steve. When AB uses his cross over it is lethal.

Did you not see the cross over I posted where he did a vanishing act on Kevin Durant or are you just ignoring that? Or is it that since it was not Steve's that you just don't want to give it credit?

 

I know what you're talking about. You're just wrong.

 

You know.....

....I never really thought of Steve Francis as much of a point guard in any vein (particularly in his prime, and at the time in the NBA where most teams relied heavily on individual talent and isolation plays to generate offense).....

.....for most of the same reasons that everyone here has pointed out, in terms of what Francis did best.

I only mention Francis now because it presents an interesting opportunity to define what a player IS at this level, aside from what he does best.

First, it is unquestioned that, in terms of individual, natural athletic talent, that Steve Francis was a sensational player, pound-for-pound. He was all energy, effort, and athleticism (at least offensively). And he could be worth the price of admission more often than not all on his own.

Francis, had he been 6'7'' instead of 6'3", would have been the IDEAL SMALL FORWARD for your ball club. Francis contributed across the board in most statistical categories at very high levels.

But as Francis said himself many times, he WANTED to be a point guard. In essence, from his perspective, Francis wanted the ball in his hands as often as possible, in order to make the most of his individual ability. But being a point guard in the NBA isn't about your own individual contributions offensively.

Point guards make sure that everybody else on the team gets opportunities to score when they are available. Point guards sacrifice their own offensive opportunities to a degree, because the team produces better and more consistently when he does that. Point guards should process more than their own individual matchup—they should always see mismatches and scoring opportunities for their TEAM, and take advantage of them.

Chauncey Billups and Jason Kidd are those types of point guards, in my opinion. Steve Nash has been other-worldly, and has benefitted by-and-large from the style of play the Phoenix Suns have employed the past few seasons, but the only proof you really need of how GREAT Steve Nash has been the last six seasons is how the Suns essentially GIVE the offense to Nash, and he very rarely (if ever) makes a poor decision.

Francis had neither the understanding of the position he wanted to play, or the temperment to learn to play it, that would have ever translated into him becoming an elite point guard.

I've always believed that the guards who start on your team should complement each other. They should be similarly skilled in ball-handling, passing and decision-making. But one or the other should be better-than-average shooting from the perimeter (20' minimum). Francis was never anything more than average at shooting from the perimeter.

Francis was at his best when he attacked the basket. That is what you want your small forwards to be able to do. And you'd like them to do it with a modicum of massaging the basketball, if at all possible.

Francis was neither a point guard or a shooting guard, to me. And if he was either, it was simply by default. Francis PLAYED like a small forward.

And consequently, achieved about as much, and lasted about as long, as most small forwards in the league tend to.

Aaron Brooks isn't a point guard, either. But he IS a shooting guard, to me. Because Brooks is much more effective and consistent as a 2-guard (by my definition), he is usually a bit better suited to play in a backcourt with a better facilitator (which is what point guards essentially should be).

I don't usually compare apples to oranges. So whoever happens to be the apple or orange between Steve Francis and Aaron Brooks to you is your choice. Both of them are (and in Francis' case were) good players.

But Brooks is the better guard between the two. Francis, potentially, was the better player because he could impact the game in so many different ways.

 

Yes, Brooks has a better jump shot. That's not debatable. However, you grossly overestimate Brooks' crossover. How often does he even go one on one? Not very. Usually, he'll get open b/c a teammate sets a pick. Like it said before, if it was as effective as you think, we'd see it more often.

I saw it. I just don't think that crossing over a bigger, slower Durant/Johnson is anything special. Remember how Marbury crossed over Yao and made him fall? So what? A small guard crossing over bigger players should be the norm, not the exception.

How is it that you're impressed with Brooks crossing over bigger, slower players and not impressed with Francis crossing over opponents with comparable size and speed?

There are aspects of Brooks' game that are superior to Francis'. Ball-handling is not one of them.

 

I never said there is no difference between 2.8 and 3.5, but you also have to consider Francis had more assists, that makes the difference between ast/to ratio much smaller than some fans make it to be. And Ast/To ratio is a better indicator of how good they are doing at decision making than just assists or turnovers alone. And the reality is: Both are below average decision makers among PGs.

We all know Francis was dumb, but AB isn't the smartest either, his limited improvement over Francis at managing clock just can't offset other attributes SFs brought to the game when he was in his peak. He is still a poor man's Francis,

It's funny how some fans use running team as that big an advantage for AB over Francis despite all other advantages Francis over AB but they ignore the same thing Lowry had on AB. Double standards.

 

My take:
1) Quickness: Even.
2) Athleticism, jumping ability: Stevie.
3) Finish at the rim: Stevie had tremendous dunks. Aaron has fantastic lay-ups. Even.

4) Dribbling/ beating his man 1v1: Stevie could beat his man sometimes, sometimes he lost the ball, a lot of time he just dribbled out the clock.

Aaron can beat his man 90% of the time. What stops him is the help defender, not the primary defender.

5) Outside shooting: Aaron. No question.

6) Assist/ court vision: Aaron. Stevie had a fair amount of assists but his were the easier kind, passing to an open man or to Yao. Aaron has more assists where he creates something for his teammates.

7) BB IQ. Stevie's is low. Aaron has different moments. He has good IQ except for the time he wanted to show he was the main man and ignored KMart. Without that, I give the edge to Aaron.

At his peak, Stevie was very good but once he lost his athleticism, he wasn't.

Aaron can play well for a longer time. Overall, I pick Aaron.

 

look im not not about to write a novel to prove how wrong u are, its a waste of time

I prefer Steve Francis you prefer Brooks, live with it

bottom line is Francis woulda killed Brooks if they played in this point in their careers.. ur biased its ok, but if u truly believe AB is better than the Franchise u kno nothing about the game..

im speakin from experience having played my whole life I would rather play a player like Ab than Francis cuz all you have to do is get physical with them and it'd take him out his game, thats all you gota do to small players, Francis would simply impose his will

but i dont expevt u to understand that type of stuff

 

3) Francis was a much better finisher than AB at the rim. He drew so many fouls compare to AB, it's not even close.

4) AB lost his dribble just as much as Francis. Francis had more travel violations than AB. I didn't see Ab was able to score against big quick guards like Rondo and Rose, Francis used to be able to score against any type of guards.

6) LOL Francis had the same number of assists even before Yao was drafted.
Why do you treat passing to an open man "bad court vision"? Isn't that good court vision if a PG can always find open teammates?

And just to remind you: All starters are having career low or near career low in FG% playing with AB, that is not something in favor of AB's "court vision" or " basket ball IQ".

 

Stevie might have drawn more fouls but I don't agree that he finishes better than AB.

I don't agree. AB has troubles with some big guards but not so much at the offensive end. Rondo did not stop AB by himself. The Celtics had 2, 3 men keying on AB on every play.

Stevie did not use to score against everyone. He had good days and bad days.
I think AB has better handle.

I said Stevie's assists were to the open man (ie. guys posted around the perimeter) and to Yao (I did not say it was just to Yao. It was another kind of assist where guard passes to a center and he scores without putting the ball on the ground. It is a very cheap assist).

AB has more assists where he creates something out of nothing, i.e. drawing the defenders to himself and make his team mate open.

 

AB is a fairly poor finisher..Everyone knows this. He's shooting 49.7 percent for the season around the rim.