I didn't say you used PER as your SOLE criterion so don't put word into my mouth. I agree that PER is not a perfect measure to evaluate NBA, and I also have problem with per-(48)min stats -- as I always do -- which 82games.com is presenting. But unless you can come up with another single statistical measure that systemically considers multiple factors, I have no choice but sticking with the least evil of all. I also agree counterpart PER (or net PER) is not the greatest index to measure the defensive performance of a player. However, given that 1) most teams don't play a lot of zone defense in NBA, 2) centers rarely play out of their positions as SJC pointed out, compared to players at other positions (well, even if they do play in multiple positions, 82games.com recognizes this fact and sort of takes care of it by providing numbers at each of those positions), net PERs are probably the single best stat out there for the purpose of evaluation of individual defense. At least it serves as THE most important supplemental stat to individual PER. It is true Stoudemire had a much better 2nd month than 1st month since the beginning of this season, which brings up his overall stats quite remarkably. But if you take a closer look at his game log, you will notice many of his big games were against weak teams. Just like you wasted no time putting a damp on the two victories by McGrady-less Rockets over at-home Orlando Magic and visiting New York Knicks in GARM, I suggest you put similar perspective on Stoudemire's big performances of late before you trumpet him up as the undisputed starting center for WC over Yao. Speaking of Yao's performance, I am not surprised at the decrease in his points production but I am disappointed and frustrated with the significant drop in his FG%. As I said in one of my earlier posts in this thread, I expect fewer points per game from Yao but improved stats on rebounds, blocks, and assists, which are all true. Because as Yao is not exclusively playing/fighting in low post and becoming less of offensive focus in Adelman's system, he spends more time away from low post, takes fewer shots, while helping the team in many other areas. For some reasons -- still adjusting to and not entirely comfortable with Adelman's offense, poor shooting by his teammates, finger injury, and week-long recovery over flu while playing without McGrady -- he lost shooting touches on his jumpers, from 44.0% a season ago to 35.7% this season, which brings down his overall FG% from 51.7% to 48.7%, a significant 3 percentage drop. By contrast, Stoudemire plays the same system under the same coach, and most importantly, with the same MVP play-maker who keeps spoon-feeding the man-child. The difference between Yao and Stoudemire in their FGs is HUGE, with Yao being assisted only 58% and Stoudemire 73%. In comparison, a year ago, Yao scored his points on 67% assisted shots under JVG's system, which were roughly the same as Stoudemire's 65%. So, if you dislike fan-based voting on All-Star starting positions, want to abandon it all together, and replace with a true performance-based scheme to select starters, I'd also say we need to evaluate players with more complete context in mind which is beyond superficial stats. To put it this way, we need to ask ourselves this question, is Stoudemire in his current physical condition really a clear-cut favorite as the starting center for WC All-Stars over an injury-free (major ones) Yao who has evolved into one of the most dominant players at his position if playing under a system that better suits his individual game? Or, if we are to undermine the significance of net PER as a way to evaluate the individual defensive performance of a player, shall we not also take into consideration all the benefits he receives from the superior plays by the MVP play-maker on his team?
Not in those words, no: wnes: You cited individual PER as your criterion for selecting Stoudemire (3rd best in the league as of now) as the starting center for the WC. I pointed out how preposterous it is because it doesn't tell the whole story (I wouldn't say it's only half the story, but it is definitely not complete). You said it was preposterous to use PER as a criterion because it doesn't tell the whole story. I'm sorry, but I can't make any sense out of that argument unless it is presumed I was only considering PER. Ok. And I just don't agree with your last sentence, for reasons I've made spelled out in previous posts. No big deal. Ok, hoopsstats.com shows splits for above and below .500 teams for Amare and Yao. He uses EFF (NBA.com efficiency rating) on that page, but if you like you can take the time to calculate something closer to PER based on those numbers (e.g. Hollinger's Game Score). I'll summarize the EFF data below for them: Code: above .500 below .500 mpg EFF EFF/40 mpg EFF EFF/40 Amare 32.5 22.2 27.3 30.6 28.7 37.5 Yao 37.3 23.6 25.3 36.4 27.3 30.0 You're right, there was definitely a dip in production against the better teams. Same could be said of Yao (and most players, more generally), though not to the same extent. I expect PER or Game Score would show something similar. And, what I said was the following: I would say he deserves the starting center spot in the West right now, considering how well he and his team has played. I never said or implied it was indisputable, so don't put words in my mouth. K? I pretty much agree. I thought Yao would play better in the high post than he has, but perhaps I was being too optimistic. The thing I'm most impressed with that you didn't mention is his stamina. He's much better at retaining a high level of play for long stretches, and he doesn't get into foul trouble as often. Amare is adept at catching the ball on the move (off of pick and roll) and getting to the basket for athletic finishes. He's also a very good midrange jump shooter and has good touch around the basket. It's very useful to have a big with that combination of talents. I wouldn't characterize it as him being spoon fed. There are only a few big men in the league who can play that way. He, like Nash and Marion, fit D'Antoni's system very well. If that is the question, I would say no. He is not a clear-cut favorite. I think its fuzzy enough to where people can have legitimate opinions on either end. I certainly don't have a problem with anyone who thinks Yao should start for the West, or even that he's the best center in the league. It's quite possible that in a month's time, I'll think Yao is more deserving to be the starter. You could consider it. I personally wouldn't penalize a player who's playing great because of another player on his team. I don't think the reason a player is playing great (or poorly) should matter, unless they are doing something illegal.
