If size were everything, then Sun Ming Ming would be the MDE. It clearly isn't. Ben Wallace is one of the best defensive players of the past decade, and he's 6'7" at best. Wilt and Russell had to contend with multiple Hall of Famers, including each other, Bob Petit, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Jerry Lucas, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who Wilt dominated in his old age in order to win a title for the Lakers. If Yao is supposed to dominate everyone shorter than he, then why have all the other super-sized players (Muresan, Bradley, M. Bol, etc.) been complete stiffs?
Hakeem was a great center, but him being better than Wilt, Kareem, Russell, and even Shaq is up for debate. Even though, Dream was far more skilled and agile than Wilt and Shaq, both are tremendous presents in paint....Wilt in his heyday was 7,1-7,2 at about 265-278....he would still be a big center by today's standards. Beyond the rule changes and stuff, he wouldn't average 50 ppg, but he would still be about the best center/player in the league. He wasn't a slouch on defense either, he made 4x consecutive All-Defense squads, which coincidently his last 4 years and the first four years of the All-Defensive teams. Shaq was always dominate player...and his teams no matter the talent always finish in the top 5 or 10 teams in league. In his rookie year, he almost lead team to playoffs 41-41 record, after being one of the worst in the league. He has deficiency in his game, but most players will say he and Jordan...where probably the hardest players to guard in 90s - 00s. He's bulky build makes it almost impossible to stop one-on-one. In head to head matchups, Olajuwon and Shaq put on some great match-ups...with Olajuwon winning the Finals against him, but in most of their meetings it looks like Shaq was slightly a better player.
Uh, Malone beat the crap out of Robinson in 96. And in 98? He was facing both Duncan and Robinson down low, but I remember that in game 4 he basically ended the series by scoring 34 off of nothing but jumpers. Here's a good excerpt from a columnist on the difference between the Maulman and the Mermaid: Rockets guard Kenny Smith said it best two years ago. "The regular season is where you make your name," he said. "The postseason is where you make your fame." Or find your infamy. No one can hide in the playoffs. They peel away and uncover the soul. They have a way of unmasking players and coaches and revealing their true identities. They separate the good from the great, pretenders from contenders, the hyped from the authentic. The playoffs reveal your level of courage and will. Everyone says he wants to win, but truth is, some are simply giving lip service. So once again, we present our annual list of playoff greats and goats, and once again, far ton many Robinsons appear in the latter category. The Good [...] Karl Malone. Sure, his dismal Game 7 against the Sonics' Shawn Kemp was a career low point. Still, Malone carried the Jazz through much of the playoffs by delivering superior performances against the Trail Blazers and Spurs. And, until that Game 7, he was doing a number on Kemp, too. [...] The Bad: David Robinson. Last year, it was Hakeem Olajuwon. This year, Karl Malone. When confronted with a big game against top-of-the-line competition, Robinson just doesn't measure up. Name another perennial All-Star who crashes as hard as Robinson in the playoffs. Can't think of one? Thought so. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n25_v220/ai_18395247
Hakeem By far is the better player both offensively & defensive. I believe Duncan is good but so are the players surrounding him. Ginobolli, Parker, Finley, Horry, & Bowen defensively. We really just had Clyde and not until the 2nd championship. Hakeem made it look easy.......good guy on & off the court. He is probably my favorite Rocket of all time. BRING BACK CALVIN!!!!!!!
How can anyone try to argue that Duncan is better than Hakeem in a Rockets forum is beyond me. Let me know if you need help to look for a Spurs fans site.
the two most dominant offensive players i have EVER seen in my lifetime are michael jordan and shaq. there is nothing u can do to stop him. what made jordan so dominant is not only was he a "volume" shooter, but he shot 50% w/ the high volume of shots that he took. players like kobe today took high volume shots but only shoot 45-46% (which is great in today's standards). i believe hakeem is a better & flashier version of duncan. hakeem was also fundamentally sound w/ his post moves. he doesn't rely on strength, but rather his skills.
And just to further make the point, from GoogleGroups: Karl Malone scored 32 points and shut down David Robinson as the Utah Jazz again smothered the San Antonio Spurs, 105-75, to take a 2-1 lead in their Western Conference semifinal series. [...] "They were very physical with us," Spurs coach Bob Hill said. "They put us on our heels and basically the game was over. We were very apologetic, we didn't fight back, we didn't get dirty. They told us what they were going to do in the paper. They called our bluff. They put it in the paper and then they did it and we didn't respond." Robinson, guarded by the shorter but heavier Malone for much of the game, managed just 11 points. He shot just 4-of-10 from the field and 3-of-9 from the foul line. Robinson scored just three points in the second half, when the Spurs were held to just 33. I did a general search on old usenet postings from 1996 involving Malone and Robinson, and almost everything from May forward is about Robinson getting his ass owned in dramatic fashion. A couple examples: Tx Blue View profile More options May 14 1996, 12:00 am Newsgroups: alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics From: act...@airmail.net (Tx Blue) Date: 1996/05/14 Subject: David Robinson is SOFT Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author I know,I know this is the newsgroup of the great green,of which I am a huge fan. ( living in Dallas will always keep you a Boston Sports fan ) But may we deviate to David Robinson for 1 post? He is definately soft. Any prodding Dave Cowens ( Now theres a coaching candidate ) bears on him is useless. Karl malone has been pounding him to the hard wood. No power forward should do that to a true center. To have your name mentioned in the same breath as the Bird's, Jordan's and Johnson's this is the time of year you step forward. He has not, nor will he. Although I have immense respect for the man, you have to maintain a meanstreak over these 6 weeks. In this time of year,I would take Parish over Robinson anytime. The Chief would eat him alive. Gary Scott Simon View profile More options Jul 5 1996, 12:00 am Newsgroups: alt.sports.basketball.nba.utah-jazz From: garsc...@pipeline.com (Gary Scott Simon) Date: 1996/07/05 Subject: Karl Malone is Awesome Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author When I first saw Karl Malone defending David Robinson during the Western semis, I thought it was an optical illusion, or a mismatch. As I kept watching, however, it appeared to have been by design. Incredible. To my mind, given the inches and youth Robinson had on Malone, this defensive job was far more impressve than Rodamn's ability to check O'Neal for certain stretches of the Eastern Finals, and all the more so because Malone continued to be a dominant offensive player. There are countless other posts and game recaps that assert the above redundantly. My point? Don't EVER ****ing act like Robinson was on Hakeem's level but for a bad playoff series. Robinson getting owned was no isolated incident; in fact it was standard when he was "the man" in SA. The only revisionism with that Puss is how some act as if he was near Hakeem as a player in their primes. No. Way.
I agree. Leaving aside homerism though Dream in his prime > Duncan. Duncan is a great player but Dream was phenomenal.
5 seconds left, down by 1, playing offense. who would you give the ball to? 5 seconds left ,up by 1, playing defense. who would you rather have in the paint for a defense? Tony Paker won the finals MVP. Nobody in Rockets was even remotely close to win the finals MVP during the championship run. Rik Smits and Rony Seikaly would all have been in all starts playing in the 2006-2007 league. That's how sorry the competition is at the center spot.
I haven't read a single post in this thread. I don't need to. Any argument proclaiming Duncan as better to or even in the same echelon as Dream is laughable. Shaq vs. Hakeem? Now that's a real debate.
No contest, Hakeem was a better overall player. Duncan had the advantage of playing with Robinson, Ginobili, and Parker much earlier in his career and thus has more championships. Drexler and the others didn't join the Rockets until late in Hakeem's career. He also shared an era with MJ, which didn't leave much championships left.
Very well put. If you were trying to put together a team and had nothing but role players who would you pick as your center?
Nice reading comprehension. I didn't leave him off the top 10, I left him off the top 9. He's not top tier IMO why I stated 1-9 was top tier and 10-30 second tier and very debatable. In case you didn't know he needed a dominant big to be truly great, just like West, Baylor, Kobe.......... And it's debatable he gets #10 FYI. It's a discussion between him Kobe, West, Baylor, and Hondo. Some people here don't realize there's more than just stats. Hell T-mac has all the stats why the hell isn't HE on all these lists? Where's KG? AI? Really, Havlicek had a better career than Roberston and if not for an injury would have won 3 NBA titles WITHOUT Russell and been the star on the team. As it was even with that injury in the playoffs on that 68 win team that then lost to the Knicks (a great great team in its own right) without him he STILL won 2 WITHOUT Russell. He was a BETTER defender by miles than Robertson. But hey those stats look real nice it's all about stats, just ask KG. Hondo won 8 titles.................and this was no Robert Horry role player, he was the best or 2nd best on all 8 teams. He was better than Pippen and won 2 more titles. He was the go to player he was the first scoring option on those teams NOT Russell. So how is Roberston better than Hondo and who does he bump off my top 9? Let me guess 4 time champ, 4 time finals MVP, 2 time league MVP best PF ever? I don't think so.
Like I have already sais, no doubt Hakeem was better than Duncan so far, BUT saying Duncan has "limited defence" is absurd.
GREAT I didn't believe it when my comment about Robinson being debatable as even top 10 C was called out. There's this obsession with stats and problem with fleeting memories. And here's a GREAT point to prove this, while everyone here is stating Hakeem had "better" stats than Duncan.......... Duncan owns Hakeem in PER which is considered the KING of all stats in basketball. Duncan owns Hakeem in all defensive composite stats, considered the KING of all D stats............. So now to all the people citing stats that proves Hakeem is better than Duncan does this now mean Duncan is better than Hakeem? The stats arguments get really old when they are taken out of context. It's just like any time you mention well you know who.......... Indeed Hakeem still rates better than Duncan at this time, but the more TD accomplishes the closer it is getting and it's already fairly close.
