Let me get this strait, DR is overrated because Dream, Shaq and Karl Malone put up huge numbers on him. Hades, Dream in his prime still gave up big numbers to Oneal and DR (around 25 and 12 or something) in the playoffs, and I rarely remember Rudy even trying matching up Dream on the Mailman. Anybody seen the numbers Wilt put on Russell? Hades again, at least DR was trying to play the best big on the court. I would have liked to see TD play Hakeem, Shaq, Malone and Barkley in their prime. (now in 99 TD proved he was better than Malone and should have got the MVP, TD was better at that point, but Malone was nearly 36). Hades a 3rd time, Duncan couldn't even handle a 20 year old twit in Amare and avoided having to guard Shaq like the plague when their primes overlapped. Duncan would have been further hapless trying to guard those 4 roaming the western conference in the mid 90s (not that Duncan couldn't have done his own damage on offense, but he certainly couldn't guard any of them any better than Robinson tried). -DR is a great player, TD is better. I probably give the edge to TD over Karl Malone too because of TD's hardware, but was he really better in their primes, not sure. (And KG is less than both DR and TD. Give KG 40 pounds of muscle and a meaner attitude and you have Karl Malone in his prime). -Shaq and Hakeem are legendary players, better than TD or Karl Malone. -The question here is whether TD is closer to DR and Karl Malone than he is to Shaq and Hakeem? I am not sure, but I know TD hasn't had squat of competition (the bigs now relatively suck, though I think the quality of guards and swingman are better now, again, just random/cyclical). Heck, there are barely Ewing and Deke and Zo quality centers running around these days, Duncan (when he plays center, which he does in the playoffs), Yao and Amare are about it in the whole league at this distant 2nd tier level. These are your all nba 1st teamers today who wouldn't have sniffed the a 3rd team all NBA squad 10 years ago.
amare is all-nba 1st team last yr. enough said about the pathetic competition at big man. the competition is on the perimeter. jordan had a HUGE gap from his competition on the perimeter when magic retired. but now the gap b/t the kobes/tmacs/brons/wades/arenas are very close.
this thread again? there is no bias or homerism in stating a fact. hakeem olajuwan is a better player than tim duncan. it's not debatable. tim duncan's advantage is two rings in a weaker league against even weaker finals competition. if you look at rings, duncan's the better player, if you look at absolutely anything else, dream is. sp*rs fans.
well most people look at rings. hence russell being in the conversation as one of the best ever when he is not that great of a scorer or offensive player and very dominant impact on the offensive end.
It seems like Hakeem put up better numbers against better players in an era that was more physical and lower scoring. I would like to see Duncan match up against Ewing, Mason, and Oakley in a best of 7.
that's fine because duncan is one of the best ever. he's a fantastic player, he's just not better than dream.
I fear that whether we like it or not Shaq and Duncan are historically going to be remembered as better players than Dream simply because of the ring factor alone.
It's about time that someone posted who was there and saw it all HAKEEM- Speed -agility- unique moves- great blocking - great steals -leadership- great defence. Duncan- Slow - limited agility - great fundamental moves- great leadership and passing.- limited defence Shaq. Great speed- Great Strength- big body and height- a go to the basket man- power defence Malone- Speed- Power player -agility- great shot from all over- team player- limited defence. HAKEEM WINS OUT when he applied his speed agilty with his unique moves, he could change direction three times so quickly that the defensive player did not even know where Hakeem was.
I was about to make the same post. Duncan would have been flustered, frustrated, and intimidated by the end of the series. Of course, The Admiral taught Duncan about the NBA while Moses taught Dream. Seriously though, this is not even a question worth debating. And the arguments about Duncan controlling the game more and making better decisions is just pure bunk. The Rockets entire defensive scheme was based on Dream not only beating his man down the court every time, but beating just about everyone else as well. Everything was funneled to him. He made the choices as to what to go after. Watch the Orlando series... he stays out of foul trouble the first 3 quarters and then shuts down the lane in the 4th. On offense, everything revolves around Dream from the spacing and the personnel to the pace of the possession and who ends up shooting... not to mention he was clutch in a way that Timmy can only dream about, particularly when he goes to the line late. Duncan's a great player, but can anyone make a serious argument that if they switched places, Duncan could win two with the Rockets? You could easily make the argument that Dream would win as many, if not more with SA.
Jeez, bro! You bring Jordan in @ #1, when even others have talked about Hakeem being as good, if not better, than Jordan. You made your bed. Sleep in it. http://clutchfans.net/news/608/wall_street_journal_on_hakeem/
i stated that hakeem is better. but to the general fan, these 2 guys played in different eras. and it's all circumstantial to say duncan wouldn't do well v. these players and all this (he does have the most fundamentally sound post game). maybe had he played v. the great big men, he might have raised his level of play. the same way we say if we had hand-checking today, a guy like wade would be relegated to an all-star status rather than superstar. so it's all moot. that's why most fans point to the rings.
Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z Yes, we are all second-rate sports fan who pale in comparison to your encyclopedic knowledge. Except that anyone who leaves Oscar Robertson off a list of the 10 best of all time is doing a little factual forgetting of his own. To this day, Robertson is probably the best ALL-AROUND player ever to play in the NBA.
does the average fan think russell is better than jordan? i mean they're both hall of famers and russell has nearly double his rings. if he had played at a time with better weight training and more competition he would have worked on his offense and probably averaged 25-26 ppg. or not. i don't think anyone said that duncan wouldn't individually perform well in a better league. but he didn't, hakeem did, and hakeem owns duncan statistically in every single category. all of them. duncan has 2 more rings due to a combination of luck, better teammates, and lesser competition. not at all because he's a better player.
Just ask Mario Elie and Robert Horry, they both played and won championships with him for the Rockets and for the Spurs.
Duncan is a much better player than some of you guys are saying. Limited defense? He is easily one of the best if not the best ever in team def. Due to his slow speed and limited agility he was and never will be a good 1-on-1 def. But he knows how to pull the strings, how to limit the effectiveness of his opponent, the only reason Amare can outplay Duncan in that 1 mad series, i have yet to see Amare play that way again, its just a moment of time where whatever amare did he comes out good. But all in all, no big man is better than hakeem, and that includes russell and wilt, who play with much smaller guys then. Wilt dominates other players who are 4-5 inch shorter than him, much like yao now, while russell with all his def ability, would come up shorter against 7" big players and 6"8-6"9 wing players. I just wonder would they came out with the same results if they play now, how would wilt plays against camby,chandler, KG, and can russell defends players like Dirk, Wallace who are big and have range that bigs in older times do not have, and i like to see him trying to defend yao, shaq who are much bigger. I believe they would come out great, but would they still be showing the same numbers? On a side note, any superstars who are the main scorer plays as the main defender as well, gain my vote over players that do not play those roles. While those that plays in lesser team, will have much higher stats as they are the main stars, while those in good teams will share the load of scoring etc etc. Duncan is a great player, but he plays with some wonderful team mates, so his stats would not be so great but he played to his part. However hakeem carry his team of mediocre talent, imagine we saying that sam cassell/robert horry is arguably the 2nd/3rd most influence in that 94 win, when sam is not even the top 10 pg then and horry was never a top 10 pf. Compare to duncan who have the 6th man of the year, a top 5 PG, the best perimeter defender and countless others veteran. Saying that, hakeem is the better player.
