It's true when you look at raw numbers that Hakeem consistantly put up great numbers. But the NBA is littered with players that put up great numbers but did not win. Much of that comes down to supporting cast and luck but a good deal of it is making the right play at the right time. I think Duncan made the right play at the right time earlier in his carrer...he simply understood the game better at a younger age and that translated into playoff wins. Hakeem is his prime beats Duncan in his prime but Duncan is, on average, a better team player and has a better understanding of the game. This b-ball IQ is so often the difference btw a win and a loss and can't be overestimated when you talk about players with great physical skills.
Basketball IQ? You're saying that Duncan has a better BBall IQ than Dream? How many improvements to his game has Duncan made over the years? How much tape of guards has he studied while trying to develop new post moves? Did you ever read in Dream's book about how you had to set up Jordan to get the block? And you think Duncan is a better team player? Really now, do you think if you swapped out Dream for Duncan that the Rockets win their first championship? Early in his career Duncan had to beat the 8th seeded Knicks and the woeful Nets when the East was at its nadir for championships. Every season during his early years Dream had to go against the Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers and then the one year they made it to the Finals, had to go against the Bird/McHale/Parrish Celtics. There's a bit of a difference there. In his early years, even while playing along Robinson, Duncan couldn't even beat a Shaq/Kobe Lakers team with significant weaknesses at the other positions. Finally, you should be banned for this paragraph alone... Are you seriously implying that Dream is on par with Alex English? Are you seriously suggesting that Dream didn't make the right plays at the right time? Talk to Charles Barkley, David Robinson, and Johnkarla about that last one. While you're at it, watch the last possessions of Game 6 of the 1994 Finals and Game 1 of the 1995 Finals. Honestly, what are you thinking?
Hakeem had one bad game that series...Game 1. And even then, he put up 26, 16, 4 and 5 blocks. In the elimination game he put up 23, 17, 9 2 and 3 (on 7-15 shooting)...played 50 minutes, and we damn near won. Now go look at some of Duncan's flameout games in the postseason (hint, I already provided you with some) then come back and join the convo. There is a difference between sucking while losing, and losing because your team is not good enough. The only advantage Duncan has on Hakeem is his team won more. And I don't think anyone honestly thinks Hakeem would not have won in those same situations. If you want to bump Timmy for having better teammates then go ahead.
hakeem is the best center in the history and TD is the best PF all around. whats the point to compare em, lol?
From someone who has played with BOTH Dream and Duncan: https://www.nbrpa.com/news/editorial/8_25_06_P2.aspx Q: “You mentioned that Olajuwon is the greatest player you played with. You also played with the Spurs and Tim Duncan and David Robinson, who was obviously up there in years at that point in time but still a good player. What are your memories of playing with them? Since you do feel that Olajuwon is the greatest player you played with, compare his game to Duncan’s. Some people see a little similarity between their games. What do you think of that?” Elie: “I love Tim. I think he may be the second best player I played with but ‘Dream,’ just his performance in pressure situations -- when David Robinson got the ’95 MVP, ‘Dream’ told me, ‘Mario, he’s borrowing my trophy.’ When I heard that I said, ‘Somebody’s in trouble tonight.’ That guy put on a performance -- under that pressure against the MVP and we have no home court advantage -- and ‘Dream’ just dominated that position. It reminded me of when Jordan dominated Clyde when they were comparing the two guards. They were comparing two centers and ‘Dream’ just totally -- I don’t want to say embarrassed—but he really embarrassed him, he dominated him -- (series averages of) 35 (points), 13 (rebounds), 5 assists, 4 blocks. Those are amazing numbers for a center.”
It's amazing how players suddenly have a great basketball IQ when they have teammates worth a darn. Go read what they said about MJ's basketball IQ, and how selfish he was, before he got great teammates. Go read what they said about Kobe's bball IQ in the 3 seasons before the last one (when he got a very good supporting cast). So you are saying Hakeem didn't make the right play in say, his 2nd season...when he took the Rockets to the Finals? Oh my...he had help that season. It's amazing what happens when you have talented teammates...it's amazing how often it is to make a right decision about passing to a dude who can actually hit a shot, as opposed to passing to someone like Buck Johnson. It's just too bad Hakeem had to face the 86 Celtics and not the 99 Knicks. You still haven't answered my question...what Spurs title team doesn't win if you replace Duncan with Hakeem? Additionally, would Duncan carry our 94 and 94 squads to titles...when he would have had to score in the high 30's and defend a great big on the other side of the court? How would he stop Ewing/Robinson/Shaq when he couldn't stop Amare or Dirk? Simple questions really.... And I was wrong when I responded with Hakeem's stats against the Sonics. I didn't read and thought the poster was referring to the 93 playoffs, not 96.
Icehouse, I think only 5% of the active clutchfans know that Dream made to the Finals in 86. I think 1% of the active clutchfans know about the 'blade' Buck Johnson.
Ok, really? Why has this gone on so long. Realistically, Duncan has no competition at the PF/C rotating spot. KG would be the closest thing, but come on. All you have to do to stop KG is make the clock malfunction and show 4 in the minutes column, whenever there's 4 minutes or less in a game, KG checks out. Dream had so much more to fight against, in a given year, just to get to the finals he would have to face Robinson, Barkley, and Malone. Duncan has to face who? Now that Gasol is a laker, it is interesting, but can we even really put a hold on him? It's not that Duncan is good, it's that there's no one is his hybrid position to compete. Put up Shaq in his prime against Duncan, and Shaq will win 4/5 times. Duncan is definition of over-rated. Even look at the years the Spurs won gold, most of the teams that were iconic were in a rebuild phase.
We could have done much worse in the draft that drugs killed... I think it's the only one in history where there was more consistent talent in rounds 2 and 3 than in round 1. Consider the players from Round 1 that made any kind of impact over several seasons... Brad Daugherty Ron Harper John Salley Scott Skiles Arvydas Sabonis Compare to 2nd and 3rd rounds... Mark Price Dennis Rodman Johnny Newman Nate McMillan Kevin Duckworth Jeff Hornacek Drazen Petrovic Larry Krystkowiak For sentimental reasons, I wanted the Rockets to pick up Mark Price (knew him in HS) in that draft... but they had a shot at Skiles, Sabonis, and all the ones from rounds 2 and 3.
He also had to play the following: Mutombo 4x a year. Seattle's illegal defense 4x a year. Shaq in 2nd Finals. Ewing and roughhousing Knicks in 1st Finals. No top player in today's NBA has faced those kind of challenges in today's NBA. You put Duncan in Dream's place, I doubt Houston makes it out of the West. Even though, Duncan could probably stand up well against Barkley and Malone. But, he couldn't stop those heavyweight centers, though. He already has enough trouble with an aging Mutombo, Gasol, Yao, KG, and others. You trade Kobe in his prime (at the same age) to take MJ's place on the Bulls, Chicago wouldn't win 6 titles. You put Nash in 90s, he doesn't win 2 MVPs, and would have hard time getting All-NBA (he would be up against Payton, Stockton, KJ, Hardaway, and others). The 90s was one of the best periods in basketball for the talent at the center and point guard positions, also it was one of the best eras for defense, taking a page of the Pistons book. You could beat superior offenses with a very physical, rebounding oriented defense. Again, the Center position probably had 4 bonafide first ballot hall of famers (Shaq, Dream, Ewing, and Robinson) and 3 possible HOF (Mutombo, Mourning, and Daughtery - might stretch though). And, players, like Seikaly, Eaton, Smits, aging Sabonis, and the hybrid Elden Campbell. That's how tough 90s was. Duncan and many other great players, today would get lost in the shuffle. Could you imagine Dream in his prime, being in the league right now? He'd be the best player, without question.
I agree with everything you say but this. I think KB24 is a lot more of an impact on a team than MJ. You put Kobe on that Bulls team and you have at least six rings, if not 8. I do agree that the center position is sort of falling apart. If someone is tall, lanky and uncoordinated, he's trained as a center. If he's skilled, quick, and small, they make him a PF/SF hybrid. I don't mean to completely undermine the spurs, but that team was specifically designed to find loopholes in the then current trend of basketball. Look at all their players, they don't really have a good fit anywhere else. Duncan would fail in any other system, Parker and Ginobli, come on, they couldn't cut it even in Detroit. That team is tailor made. I have to give mad props to the GM and Pop, but realistically, it doesn't make those players dominant. What those guys are, San Antonio's big three, they play good team basketball. A dominant player can play team ball, but he can also carry a team if the game is on the line. MJ was dominant. Kobe is dominant. Tracy was dominant. These iconic scorers and passer really revolutionize basketball. Yes, all three have more offense than defense, but still, you wouldn't wanna go up against them. But Dream is the exception to these type of dominant players. Being a player, how do you deal with Dream giving you equal amounts of grief on both ends? As coach, what plays do you run to get around it? Dream is dominant. Look at the supposedly dominant Celtics team of last season. They found themselves in a game seven situation twice! Kobe was choking like no other and yet the lakers still had a decent chance to take it from the celts. None of their players is dominant, and yet, if they repeat this year, KG will be seen as greater than Dream, Pierce will be more iconic than Clyde, and James Posey will look like the dumber version of Robert Horry. Dream was dominant, but he didn't advertise it, he didn't hype it, he didn't smack talk, he didn't get technicals, he didn't pick fights with refs, he didn't have gambling issues, he didn't rape a white girl, he just won.
I meant I do not recall him dominating that series (against Seattle in 1996). I think you're referring to the 92/93 series. He was fantastic that year. I'm talking about the year after our second championship, when we got swept in the second round.
You partly explained my point. If Kobe couldn't get done against the 04 Pistons or 07-08 Celtics. How could he get it done against the 90-95 Knicks, or playing against a team with great center and defense (Dream, Robinson, and Shaq ) . He just doesn't that killer instinct, like MJ did. If MJ (circa 90 - 98) was on the Lakers, last year or in 04. Do they lose very badly in those series? I'm thinking not, even if MJ and SHaq or at each other's throat. Those two alone, could win 74+ games.
Don't know what to say but...disagree! Posey isn't on the Celts..had to point that one out.. Dream did get techs, did fight with refs, and did fight with players (and his owner). He just changed with a change in religion.. which is cool. But gotta remember that aspect of his career, too.. (esp. if we're going to talk about his accomplishments early on) And because I'm pointing out some negatives, I should state that my actual position is that Hakeem edges out Duncan overall. Not by a ton...but definitively.
Hence why he's the stupider vesrion of Robert Horry if the Celts win. At least Horry knew when to stay, and when to leave...
I have a pretty simple question for anybody that believes Duncan > Hakeem: Can you name one tangible thing that Duncan does better than Hakeem? I can't think of one. Number of championships is a function of several things beyond just an individual player. If you look at career statistics, one measurement for comparison, Hakeem was better at everything, especially when you take out the last few years of Hakeem's career when his numbers naturally went down, like they do for all players. If you take Hakeem's first 12 seasons and compare them to Duncan's first 12, it isn't even close. If Duncan plays 18 seasons, again, it won't be close. As it stands, including the natural decline, Hakeem is still better than Duncan, statistically. Beyond the statistics, they were the same size yet Hakeem was far more athletic. Athleticism matters in basketball. Because of that uncanny athleticism for a big man, Hakeem redefined his position. Duncan hasn't redefined anything. He's just a very good PF that makes up for his flat-footedness and lack of athleticism by playing fundamental basketball. Hakeem had the fundamentals and the athleticism. Conclusion: Hakeem >>> Duncan
Career FG% Dream: .512 Duncan: .508 I would expect the great Duncan, renowned for his fundamentally sound approach to basketball and celebrated for his superior basketball IQ to trounce Dream in FG%, not be behind him. Dream shot over .500 for 13 straight seasons. Timmy has shot over .500 for 6 total times and only strung 3 consecutive years together. Duncan already has 6 years below.500 while Dream only had 4, 3 of which came during his last three years in the league. Duncan hasn't really played during his declining period. In the playoffs, the difference is more glaring. Duncan's career playoff FG% declines off his career mark to .501 while Dream increases his to .528. Duncan's career playoff scoring average increases over his regular season career average by 1.8. Dream increased his by 4.1... and that's with his last three playoff totals being 10.3, 11.9, and 7.1. It's close only in the way Alaska and Russia are close.
