you minimized the front lines that duncan played against by being very selective. playoff series power forward/center opponents: amare stoudamire* (3), kurt thomas (3), nene (2), marcus camby** (3), carlos boozer***, zydrunas ilgauskas, drew gooden, dirk nowitzki* (3), erick dampier, desagna diop, bonzi wells (2), brad miller, corlis williamson, antonio mcdyss, elden campbell (2), danny fortson, jerome james, kenyon martin (2), shaquille o'neal* (5), karl malone* (2), pao gasol***, dikembe mutombo**, raef lafrentz, shawn bradley, bo outlaw (2), scott williams, vin baker***, horace grant, juwan howard, kevin garnett* (2), rasho nesterovich, larry johnson, arvydas sabonis, brian grant, jermaine o'neal, sean rooks, joe smith, and dean garrett. *mvp **dpoy ***mvp candidate as for the shooting percentages in certain series, duncan is the most double/triple-teamed player of this generation.
When Amare was MVP? :s And please stop this thread it is soooooooooooooooo dumb and Hakeem would win ina a landslide
You are talking about the same Aamare who destroyed Duncan to the tune of 38 ppg in the 2005 playoffs right? And no, Shaq is by far the most double/triple teamed player of this generation. Also, Duncan lost to Malone both times he faced him in the playoffs. In the 04 playoffs, a 40 yr old Maloen frustrated the hell out of Timmy. Duncan's Spurs were also 2-3 against LA in the playoffs, a losing record. Next...
The West is stacked with what? The Mavs, a perennial choking team? A Suns team which is great offensively but doesn't play any D? Hell, the Jazz with 0 playoff experience made the WCF this year. That's how "stacked" it was. The only reason it seems stacked is that the East is so utterly bad. I'm sorry, but the Tmac/Yao Rockets dont win 52 games in the 90's Western Conference.
The fact you even suggest these ***(3 star) guys are MVP candidates say how bad the bigs are (with the exception of Duncan and Shaq). These guys would not have sniffed all-star games in the mid 90s. No, that would be Shaq. And Shaq shot a lot higher FG% + was the more efficient and dominant offensive force in their primes. I could buy that argument, not by a wide margin, but some. KG probably has a higher BB IQ than Shaq, Hakeem and Karl Malone, doesn't mean he is better than any of them. The gaps between Hakeem's athleticism or Shaq's power (and probably more athletic than Duncan too) are far greater than any BB IQ edge Duncan had. Not that Duncan is Steve Nash, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird level BB IQ or anything.
spurs almost swept the suns. how is that getting destroyed? nobody ever said that nique destroyed the celtics. it's ok to let one guy score if you win. yes, malone did bet duncan when duncan was a rookie and when malone was on a team with shaq and kobe and payton. and with all thost future hall of famers, it was a nobody that hit a lucky shot in game 5. hakeem lost to shaq in 99. malone in 97 and 98. lost to payton and kemp in 93 and 96. did not make the playoffs in 92 (scored robert horry in the lottery). lost to vlade in 90 and 91. lost to alton lister in 87 and 89? roy tarpley in 88. parish in 86. mark eaton in 85. it's a team game when hakeem loses, duncan loses when duncan loses.
boozer and gasol and stoudamire were too young then. no, shaq got double teamed but there was a price to pay (kobe). sometimes it got too expensive and sometimes teams new it was too expensive to begin with. duncan was double teamed more.
And more importantly not good enough even if you had a time machine. It is laughable to think in those guys peak form could make all-star teams in the mid 90s. Amare was a 1st team all center this year. He would be what 4th at best, behind Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, and possibly 7th after Zo, Ewing and Deke as well. Same era Big Z and Magloire made all star rosters and Ben Wallace and Jermaine Oneal are regulars. I thought you had pointed out how great Duncan's BB IQ was? Those players particularly make the doubles pay, especially with the perimeter shooters the Spurs have been stocked with. Sorry, Shaq was doubled more and was more efficient against it because of his overwhelming power. Duncan was a solid #2 though. In Hakeem's peak he was carrying a team to titles that was frequently overmatched in multiple other positions. In Duncan's peak it was in the middle of Shaq taking home 3 strait playoff MVPs.
And which one of these dudes is a stud offensively that Duncan actually had to hold on the other end? Malone beat him. Amare got off on him. Dirk is softer than charmin. He never checked Shaq (thank you Robinson). No one else on your list would even make the all-star game in Hakeem's era (yes Mutombo was great but how old was he then??).
It's not about being selective. Yes the players you mention are really good players. But I'm talking about good defensive players and teams. All the good defensive front lines have given Duncan problems because of his limited athletisism. Amare and Boozer cannot defend Duncan and would get abused by Shaq and Hakeem. But let's just look at this year's playoffs, Duncan is in his prime and his worst performances are against Cleveland and Denver. They had the better defensive players in the front court compared to Phoenix and Utah. And centers and power forwards defending are lacking in the game today. You tell me with an honest face, what kind of numbers Duncan would put up against Ewing, Mason, Oakley, and an amazing defensive NY team or against your beloved Robinson and Rodman combo. Get Real, I'm telling you with an honest face; Dream in his prime (in todays less physical paint) replaceing Duncan in last years playoffs would average 32 points, 12 rebounds, 5 assits, 5 blocks, 53% from the fg and a 75% from the line. And more importantly would have swept the Suns and held the Cavs to about 72 points a game in a sweep as well.
That's my point I'm not talking about the losses, I'm talking about individual performances. Duncan has been in an ideal situation his whole career. A great organization, Robinson, and an NBA where he stands tall and powerful. Use your unbiased part of your Spurs brain and imagine how he would do against Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem, K. Malone, Mark Eaton, and centers and power fowards who actually liked physical contact and could block shots. Clearly you realize Shaq and even Mutombo have given him problems throughout his career. Can someone give me Duncan's stats against the Rockets last year? I know Yao missed 2 of those games. I just want to see how he faired against both the 40 plus year old Deke and Yao, since they're the better of today's NBA. The sad thing is they are not even in the same realm as a 30 year old Ewing, Hakeem, Deke, or David Robinson.
Thats true but I was speaking metaforicly.And I don't get you?!You want to argue with Rockets fans about Duncan > Hakeem.
While it is true Hakeem was better than Duncan, let's not credit Horry as the world's greatest basketball mind or something, I mean "he knows more about basketball than all of us". He has without question one of the highest BBall IQ's of players in recent years, however he also once said that Ainge and Jackson should have been running "his plays" rather than the ones they ran. Ainge and Jackson certainly know what plays to run. It sounded to me like Horry sees the game on the floor but he couldn't coach if his life depended on it.
Malone beat him as rookie (and he didn't squash him, the Jazz had a better team)...Duncan has proven that he is better player as Malone...the numbers will show that he is and was. Amare had one great series against Duncan and Spurs....and at the time Duncan didn't have exclusive coverage on him...most of that went to Nestorvic...and they just played a series against this year and Duncan was by far the better player....he either had Amare in foul trouble or changing down to center or pf (with Kurt Thomas), because they was no way he could cover Duncan in the post. I agree with your later statements Duncan hasn't really played same quality of players that Hakeem did, but that doesn't mean he be any less of great player. But to be honest he has had good competition...I mean let see Garnett, Nowitzki, R.Wallace, B.Wallace, Malone, Martin, and Amare. That's not as good as Dream's but still pretty good. If Duncan played in the 90s, he still would be about the best PF in the league and maybe even a champ (being paired with primed David)...I don't think he would've had 4 playing against all that tough competition. It's hard to say like all of those age old NBA questions... Would Wilt still be 50 ppg and 20 rebs playing the 80s or 90s? Maybe or maybe not....but I will say personally, I believe that some of centers of 90s and the good C/PFs of today, if placed back in the 60s would have similar numbers under same guidlines. I could see Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Ewing and players now lke Duncan, Garnett, Brand, Yao, and etc? Would all be getting over 35 ppg and 18 rebs because if you've only got about 15 to 17 teams in the league where most centers were around 6,4 to 6,7 and very unathletic. There is no way anybody can convince me that the average 6,6 230 pound center of 60s is better than a 7,0 250 pound center of today or in 90s. Could imagine Shaq playing back in that time and look at how people complained about him now? Wilt was a big guy and still would be today, but I don't see running shot gun people like that today. I think he would do great against a middle of the road center...he wouldn't average 50 ppg against them. How would have M.J.s Bulls really would've fared against the prime Celtics or Lakers of the 80s? How much better is M.J. than Kobe? Are players now better than they were 20 or 30 years ago? How long have refs in NBA been betting on games? I'm still wondering about that one too.
Let's not get crazy...I think Dream (if he replaced Duncan) would actually have about 35-40 ppg and 13 rebs against the Suns, because they play absolutely no defense with that being said I don't him alone would sweep the series....it would still be hard fought series, because Suns have such deep roster that it would be tough for any team to sweep. It would be 6 to 7 game series. You realize it's team effort, which is why Houston wasn't that great of team before they won title.
