Forget the Turkey comparisons in regular seasons. Peja is a career 38.8% shooter in the playoff at 14ppg. He chokes! <font size="1" face="courier"> Career 268 158 31.1 .460 .386 .868 1.10 3.50 4.60 1.9 .99 .15 1.59 1.50 16.1 Playoff 28 15 31.5 .388 .307 .920 1.70 3.70 5.40 .6 .61 .11 1.71 1.90 13.9 </font> As you said, "I hope you can see the clear difference there." No way is Peja better than Bibby. And if he is the 2nd best player, then he chokes. Air ball WIDE OPEN with plenty of time to set up, the shot of his life. Peja was not needed to beat the Lakers, that was so plainly obvious. Further, they are worse off with Divac gone than Peja. You are seriously underrating the need for Bibby and Divac on that team to make them a stellar passing team combined with Webber's passing. Just because the NBA's best passing team can get Peja open, does not mean he's their second best player. Duncan and Webber both were looking to pass and took shots when open. Duncan didn't "choke" did he. The role players "choked." None of them wanted to shoot. Right????? You aren't blaming that on Duncan. I could say Duncan didn't want to make early moves before the double teams and passed passively. How is that different that what you say Webber did? Webber demanding the ball in the high post like how Duncan got it would result in a pass. They were either forcing the ball out of Webber's hands, Webber was making his shots, or he was finding the open men. He is not Hakeem. Quit holding him to those standards and say he has to be a low post player who can beat double and triple teams. That's not how the Kings win in the regular season or through the first two rounds. And they still win their way if Divac and the roles players didn't choke up at crunch time. Webber looked aggressive and decisive to me. That's the Kings style. If Hakeem's style loses, we blame it on lack of passing. If Webber's high post style loses, we blame it on lack of low post play. good grief. If he choked and looked lost, that's one thing, but I don't think Duncan or Webber choked.
So since Webber was at about 44% (he's now at 46%, compared to 50% career) from the field in the playoffs prior to this season, does that make him and Funderburke interchangeable? You still would want the better player on the floor, right, regardless of their past playoff performances? I'm trying to get this straight...so if Webber had gotten injured prior to the LA series, would you have said "but he's a playoff choker anyway, it doesn't matter"? Turkoglu is a good player, but Stojakovic is better. I agree that Sac is worse off w/o Divac than without Peja. The reason I think is that Peja has a much better backup than Divac, not that Divac is a better player than Peja. You keep bringing up the airball, ignoring the fact that he missed like a month of play during the playoffs prior to that. You're saying this based on the last two playoff series, when Peja was INJURED. No one would've thought this prior to the Dallas and LA series. Bibby surprised everyone there. I don't know if I'm now willing to say that Peja is their second-best player, but he was their second-best player during the year, and he got injured. That's a big loss. First off, Duncan has proven himself already by winning a championship. In addition, the Kings are loaded, while SA, well, isn't. Third, Duncan was being doubled (if not more)! Webber wasn't. Fourth, you don't get paid like Garnett to be a passer in the clutch, unless you're Garnett. Are you saying your best player should just "run the offense" and "find the open man" in a pressure situation? I'm thinking you have to force your will on the other team, not react to what the defense is doing. Webber looked "aggressive and decisive" to you? Huh? He did except for the last couple of minutes of all the close games in the series. He did play well up until that point though. Answer this for me -- Did you think Webber wanted to shoot the last shot in Game 5?
Doesn't matter what I thought prior to the last two playoff series about Bibby, but I've always thought Peja is merely a great shooter, and he has choked his whole life in the playoffs. 38% in 15 games and 30% from 3pt line...choker!!! I agree, the Kings are loaded, that is the whole reason they play a different game, and why Webber (and Duncan and Garnett too, btw) doesn't agree with you on forcing his individual will by attacking the teeth of the world's best defense. Look at Webber's line against the Lakers: 24ppg, 11 rpg at 51% and <b>6.3 assist per game</b> that is almost 2 more more assists per game than his previous 2 series this year and 2 more than Bibby for the Lakers series. Don't you think the 2 apg jump by Webber, and a 2 apg decline by Bibby was indicative of a defensive game plan by the Lakers, that didn't really work like that thought it would. That is the Kings game--high post passing. Webber passes. He is one of the best, if not the best, high post passer in the game. If anyone is better than him, it is Divac. They got beat by their best from Bibby and Webber, imo. Webber was far from choking that series. Are you really saying every star should play like Hakeem and force their will when they are surrounding by good players/stars. Remember, we are arguing about whether Peja or Bibby is better and that Turky and Divac are just as important, and how Jackson could get red hot. <b>bottomline</b>: I think you are both dismissing the disruptive ability of the Lakers defense, and are second guessing a team's decision to stick to their passing game and find the hot hand. Webber shot 51% with 6.3 apg for crying out loud.
I wouldn't say Webber choked, but I will say he kind of stepped back with the marbles on the line. Comparing Webber's 2nd half output (of playoff games) to Duncan's I think this is obvious. There is nothing wrong with passing, but when Sac's offense was bogged down he is the guy that needs to score before the double team gets there instead of waiting for the double team and then pass, and he didn't adjust his plan even when his teammates were floundering with the outside shots. Also, Webber didn't get quite a few key rebounds or protect the glass--areas even when his offense was off he could have contributed. And Freak is exactly right on the end of game 5. Bibby was very lucky to get a chance to win the game because Webber with about 10 seconds left had an open lane, was extremely indecisive about what to do, and knocked it out of bounds. The Kings were very fortunate the refs called it off Fox or some Laker, if not for that call Bibby never gets the chance to win that game. Also, in game 4, up by 1 with less than 20 seconds left, Vlade goes to the ball and gets fouled. He only makes one allowing the Lakers to run a play that ends with the lucky Horry winning play. Vlade sinks two, Sac sets up at the 3 line and the Lakers have to take a tough shot just to tie. So Vlade does choke here, but I more fault Adelman even more by not drawing a play where Bibby or Christie gets the inbounds and/or going to a 4 guard/SF line-up with Webber throwing it in. Also, Peja wasn't in the flow of that whole series like Hedo and Christie were. The others' bricks (especially Christie, a vet) are more telling IMO. Peja may not be the Kings 2nd most valuable player because Hedo makes a good but not complete replacement, but there is little doubt in my mind he is their second best player. Freak's Sac records when Webber was injured shows this pretty strong.
again, Bibby and Webber are superior to Peja. You are really going to believe November/December stats to June!!! Peja is a career playoff choker!! 38.8% Choker, Choker, Choker. Peja underperforms as much as anyone I've seen recently in the playoffs. He is a Choker!!! An air-balling choker on what he does best, no less. Second best players...who can't play defense, don't get anyone involved, and shoot 38.8% ... are not second best players. Second best players do not air ball wide open ... shot of their life ... shots ... on the tail end of 38.8% career playoffs. Then you have the great play of Divac for much of the series then, Divac choking WITH THE BALL in Game 4, with a crucial feeble turnover with 1 min left in game 4 after failing to pass to a cutting Webber for an outright slam. Divac leading the way to all the missed free throws in Game 7. Webber performed at a high level within their offensive game plan, which apparently, is the ONLY game plan that can challenge the Lakers, much less beat them. case closed. You guys are seriously underestimated the Laker's 4th Q defense. You cannot go to one man and beat them, Duncan agrees. Everyone must perform. Everyone but Webber and Bibby (and Jackson when he played) choked up on their shots and their execution.
Peja was having a less than stellar post-season up to the point of his injured ankle...but...even in the Dallas series Peja was still contributing...look at Dirk's stats...what % did Dirk shoot in the playoffs against the Kings? Is he a choker too? Not as good as Nash or Finley? Peja is the Kings second best player, and to reference his play vs. the Lakers this year is purely slanting the truth. He shouldn't have even played one minute in that series, but he did, but wasn't there. However, he did short-arm the 3 pointer that could have put the Kings up in Game 7. Ever played with an injury? It sucks. Confidence level goes way down because your body doesn't respond. (Except for Isiah ) Peja can handle the pressure, he was the European Championships MVP last summer. He's played in all sorts of pressure filled games overseas, and just needs to prove it over here. Because you're right, Fox got into his head last playoffs, and the only way he's going to get respect is to prove in the playoffs in the years to come. Bibby had an amazing playoff run, and he might be considered the Kings 2nd best player next season, but not this one. And, just to be fair, the Kings were 18-8 w/o Webber and with Peja leading the way, but when Peja was hurt, Turkoglu started and the Kings went something like 11-2 or 11-3 in the regular season.
Dirk shot 40% against the Kings in the playoffs. What a choker. (sure, he still averaged 24 points a game and 11 rebounds) Peja's stats are skewed because he only played 2 quarters of the game he was injured in and limited minutes in the Lakers series which led to his 14 points a game. Peja did a great job on Dirk in the playoffs, just like in last summer's Euro Championships. Peja is in Dirk's skull.
All they had to do is rebound and make ft's and they play the nets in the finals. The game when Horry made the shot, they gave up 17 offensive rebounds. 17 off rebounds to a team like the lakers is death, including the last one Divac could have taken out of bound with him. People can blame the refs, but if they rebound the ball, there is no game 6 drama. If they make their ft's then there is no overtime in game 7. If they make their ft's like they did in the regular season, all this crying would be for nothing.
Hallama, LOL! You are not looking at the stats, and apparently are blind to Peja's playoff career, and you don't read other people's post at all, do you? The stats I gave for Peja are not skewed. It is stats for 28 career playoff games. How is that skewed. He's a money-game choker. How can he shoot a lifetime 38% in playoffs and 31% 3ptrs as a premier shooter, and not be called a choker??? Who cares what he does in Nov/Dec or in the European Finals. You guys know Webber had MVP numbers last year during the regular season and everyone knows he tightened up in the playoffs and choked. Every calls Webber a money-game choker. And that was correct until this year. You are so hypocritical to say Peja proved himself in Nov/Dec when he is a 28-Game Career Playoff Choker. He is 31-101 in 3 ptrs in playoff games! Shandon Anderson tightens up, and Divac did a couple of times. And so does Peja. The difference in this year and last re: the Kings execution is the difference in Webber and Bibby's play, and obviously has nothing to do with Peja. To say Webber should have played differently is equivalent to saying the Kings offense is poorly designed.
Based on playoffs - Bibby is Kings best player. Then Bobby Jackson. Then Webber. Then Vlade. Peja, Doug Christie bricked open shots. No excuse. Noose time. Bye bye. I wonder what they could get for them in trade? Those are two good players - still - could the Kings get lotto picks for them? Prolly NO. I don't see any Caron Butler for Peja at draft day, do you? Not even Peja + Christie. Here's hoping they learn to channel all that laker hate into a flaming sword next year, and get those guys to learn and step up, or pass if you just can't.
On topic - must admit I was flabbergasted at some of Addlemind's calls. What was he thinking, letting Webber guard Shaq, with Pollard ready? Why wasn't Bobby Jackson in the game, when Jackson/Bibby has demonstrated they could rip the Lakers apart? Get thrown out with the late basket in game four! That was a good time to show your piss-face so familiar from the whiner-Blazers. Some things mystify me. Why fould out Vlade, and not Pollard? Why not attack the basket, when you had the advantage? Given what he had to work with - Bibby was Superman, just superhuman in the series.
Why did the Kings lose? They just didn't have enough to get past the Lakers. The Lakers had Kobe scoring their 4th quarter points, the Kings had Bibby. Kobe > Bibby. The Lakers had been there before and their experience showed, while the Kings looked lost at times. Had it not been for Bibby, the Kings wouldn't have had a chance.
Bibby was their answer and in the end they lived and died by him. It's kinda harsh to blame Peja's performance just on one shot when he came back after injuries. Hedo was doing a better job and took Fox out of his game right until Game 7. I thought Divac was doing the best job on Shaq in the whole postseason. He only made stupid fouls when he got frustrated by the refs because they wouldn't give him every call he whined for. Webber was already feeling Game 7. Remember that tangle up with Kobe in the beginning of the game? The one that got him a technical? It bit him in the ass when they went to overtime. Not a big time player here. Not yet at least. He puts too much of his personal drama on the floor, but he can't control it yet. For all the talk about refs giving them that game. The Lakers were good enough to take advantage of that position. All the Kings had to do was score just as much after halftime. And if anyone talks about the psychological effects, Shaq was feeling it as well. He wasn't agressive for games 2,3, and 4. They battled back from big leads in two games. The Walker three? Did you notice it before NBC pointed it out? Did any of the players notice it? And how much psycologically did it influence both teams, as much as that one point Webber technical that led to overtime? The score could affect players to make or miss their shots. Watching the Rockets all these years, it was gut wrenching when they would score in bunches but could never make that <i>one</i> shot that would tie the game or give them the led. It puts you in a different mode, and changes the ballgame. That's my two cents.
heypartner; maybe you should reread my post as well. I clearly stated that Peja needs to prove he is a money player in the playoffs. His stats have been less than stellar in the playoffs. But, he still contributes in other areas like his defense on Dirk and he stretches the opposing defense. This season's totals skew (from Game 3 of the Mavs series on...) his overall stats because he had a little thing called a severly sprained ankle. I'll wait and judge his playoff career when he is retired on the Mediteranean smoking a Camel with his buddy Vlade.
partner, you're the one who's not reading others' posts. "Case closed"? LOL. You keep talking about how Webber "stays within the system". You never answered my question about Game 5 -- Do you think Webber wanted that last shot? Did Bibby stay within the system when he said "give me the ball and I'll make it"? What system is that? Quit comparing Duncan and Webber. Webber was NOT double-teamed. There is no comparison there. Webber's game IS high-post passing, I agree. That's why he's a "fake franchise player". Is a high post passer worth 120 mil to you? He's a Scottie Pippen with less defense and more scoring. Are you not supposed to look towards your 120 million dollar man when you need a money basket? Are you going to answer that? Or are you supposed to look for him to pass? What the heck does that mean? I've already said Bibby might be better than Peja based on THIS YEAR'S PLAYOFFS. What you keep ignoring is that Peja was hurt during the time that Bibby proved himself. You're saying he outplayed a guy that WASN'T ON THE COURT. Well duh. This is what I'm not getting. You admit Webber "was" a choker. You say that all changed in this year's playoffs. Peja gets hurt in this year's playoffs, so he's still a choker because he doesn't get a chance to prove otherwise. Had Webber missed playoff games this year due to injury, would it have been no big deal for the Kings, since he was a playoff choker previously?
In game 5 with that last play where Bibby made that shot, the possesion was wrongly given to the Kings because Webber was the last one to touch it before it went out of bounds. But the refs whistled Lakers, and set up the shot that let the Kings win. Webbers got Sheed-like drama within, he won't carry them until he resolves it.
The Kings are to blame for their own tragedy the road to the championship is difficult to win you must meet any challenge doesn't matter what the officials do, and you sure as hell can't stand there and b**** when you spend half your time trying to draw offensive fouls (insert your Vlade flop here) all of the sudden the Lakers gain momentum and the Kings don't get any calls SURPRISE! bottom line is they had a hill they couldn't climb it may have been a larger hill than the Lakers (in one quarter of one game) but no one ever climbs the same hill Houston had an impossible run to the Finals in 95 it didn't matter who they faced in the playoffs or what calls they got ...they had the will to win, period. if the Kings still think they got robbed they will repeat their mistakes
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