Absolutely, they are good players. But their stats inflated their values early in their careers. Is this the case with Francis? That is what people are asking in this thread. They don't put up great stats? Damon's stats from his first few years look as good as Francis, and his assits are better.
jordan is considered the greatest by a lot of experts, true. but not because of the # of points scored. that was a byproduct of his greatness. oh, and nique, et al were all great players, but not championship material leaders/players. that is what the ultimate goal is, is it not? i'm not saying they suck...don't get me wrong about that. but when i judge franchise players, i judge their ability to lead their team to the promised land. and stats are not always indicative of that ability.
Back to the main topic. JWill used to be very boneheaded in his decision making, much worse than Francis (can you imagine that? ). That's why the Kings gave up on him, even though they were already winning with him. He is getting a lot better under Hubie in that department. His handle and passing skill were never questioned. I don't think he's got any smarter. He's just more controlled. I mean, to look smarter, you don't have to do more smart things. Just do less stupid things. That's probably what Hubie is doing with him, less stupid things. Francis is both boneheaded and lacking passing skill. But he is a much more talented scorer and shooter than JWill. I don't think Francis will improve very much in the smart and passing skill departments. But he can play a more controlled game. Cut down on stupid things. Drill on some fundamental team-oriented habits. Stockton and Payton are totally different breeds compared to Williams and Francis. Both Stockton and Payton are smarter guys. They didn't make many stupid mistakes from the very beginning. They both play good defense (especially Payton). Stockton is obviously a better playmaker and Payton a better scorer.
Why does this thread turn into "Is Steve Francis a franchise leader" discussion once again? Back to the initial post which compared Steve Francis to Jason Williams, implying that we should give more time to Francis to learn as a PG but for me, isn't it quite obvious that they're totally different situations? Williams's a natural playmaker who needed to learn to be smarter and more under control. Francis's a natural scorer who needed to learn to be a distributor/playmaker. Surely you can teach one to improve his skills more easily than teach one some new skills, no? And the real question is: Why do we not just use and improve Francis's natural skills (i.e. scoring) than ask him to learn something new?
Newgirl: as i said in my earlier post, steve can become a winner if he will make the necessary changes in his game.
One thing he can do is stop waltzing up the court. He was doing it from the beginning to the end of the season. I have never understood it. I'm not talking about his little skip. I could care less about that as long as he was in a hurry. I haven't seen enough of Williams this year to really make a comment on him one way or the other. Francis, however, needs to learn to get his *** in gear. That's a change I would like to see, among others.
you guys were spoiled by Hakeem. You can't say a player is good or bad looking solely at their victories or how many rings they got. For instance, was Clyde's career made good by his one ring? Was Chamberlain a chump until he got his? TMac might be the best player in the L but he barely makes the playoffs is he not a winner? Garnett? You have to look at stats to know hey TMac is putting up 30 a game or Garnett is doing everything to make his team win. Steve is not a true point, he is going to get 20 a night almost anytime b/c that is what makes him Steve Francis. We are not going to tell Ming to play like Hakeem b/c that isn't his game. Steve plays with emotion (ie skipping, etc.) he's having fun on the court, what's wrong with enjoying what your doing? I would rather have Steve turn the rock over making a play than Yao lose it standing in the post. Many of our players have things to work on, Steve has to get better at running the team. Say it and leave it at that, there is no need for you all to slander the guy. Believe me he is going to be here for a LONG time (and we are lucky!)
Who is slandering him? Not me. I said I didn't care if he skipped or not, but I do care that he doesn't hustle down the court and go into an offense with a decent amount of time on the clock. Personally, I want him to haul buns down the court all the time. Then, when he slows it up, we can all wait with breathless anticipation to see what's going to happen next. It's a mystery to me how someone who is so explosive and in such superb condition (and he is) can dawdle like he does. That's not slander... it's an opinion. (with maybe a little sarcasm )
I assume that Stocktons and Paytons played pg in their college years. Francis was a shooting guard all the way. That's where his preference lied. After four years of watching him at the 1, it can be reasoned that he wanted to play the pg position because he feared that he would face bigger and taller opponents in the NBA at the 2, plus, playing the 1 means more touches for him to shoot the ball, not because he loved to play the 1 or was good at it. Since day 1 there were fans who felt that Francis isn't a natural one, but their voices were stifled by the overwhelming expectation for Francis' point guard career, backed up by Rudy's Francis Ballon inflating. Ironically, after four years the same tone can still be heard, only the level of expectation is lowered. Before it was Francis vs. Big O, Magic, Payton... now it's Francis vs. White Chocolate. Maybe next year it'll be Francis vs. Gilbert Arenas. Vancouver wanted to either play Francis at the backup 1 and the starting 2. Francis didn't like both. He was set in his mind in day one to play the starting 1 in the NBA, even he never played pg before. While the Francis trade was a steal, it's kind of interesting to wonder why some fans are so set on waiting out on Francis to be a great point guard, when his forte is clearly scoring and rebounding, not pg qualities such as court vision, advanced planning and synchronous thinking in action. I acknowledge that Francis has made a little improvement as a pg this season, he's got a little more stable after the all star break. But I think expecting for him to improve a lot with time is going against the odds. Although a sqaure peg does get rounder under constant pushing, it can't be forced into a round hole. To put it simply, it's like putting Hakeem at the 1 expecting him to become a wonderful passer with time. As smart as Hakeem was he wasn't good at passing to guys in motion even when his career was over. Bad analogy though, Hakeem never needs to be a good playmaker as he's just too good, Francis does because he's not too good. 20,6,6 is Pippen-like numbers, minus the defense. Francis is a Latrel Sprewell clone minus the height, defense and leadership. Sprewell is running into trouble lately, as he still relies on his athleticism when he's 30+ years old. I don't know how do some fans establish that Francis is a special player with his 20,6 and 6 output. Francis isn't a special player, he really isn't worth putting the franchise's fate on him and waiting out. I'm not talking about trading Francis, I'm saying Francis shouldn't be untouchable.
The TO stats sort of balance out Francis' playmaking contributions. How does Philly solve this problem with AI at the 2?
I think Francis CAN learn the PG position He has only played it for these last 4 yrs I think he is constantly improving. Payton does not really make the FANCY pass or even the difficult one . . . I think Francis needs to work on his games Moving him to the 2 . . . may not be THE solution Rocket River
The same people who says Francis never played point and therefore shouldn't be expected to do so, i have a couple of players to think about. Gilbert Arenas: 2 guard in college. One of the hottest prospects because of his improved decision making at the pg spot. Mike Bibby: Just like most Arizona guard tandems, he shared alot of ball handling with Miles Simon. Once in the league, showed on a poor Vancuver team that he understood the pg position. Sam Cassell: Shared the ball handling with Bob Sura and Cjarlie Ward. Came to a low post oriented offense, but once on his own has shown he's a very good and smart playmaker. Stephan Marbury: Everyone wants to say he's always been a pg, but at GT, shared alot of the ball handling with one of the Barry boys. Since entering the league , has sown explosiveness and decisive playmaking abilities. These are players who i watched in college that were psuedo pg that made the transition to pg in the nba. Why are we not to think that Francis can't do the same. Even a player like Iverson avg 23pts 7 asst while playing the pg. Why can't we expect Francis to do at least the same. If he can't handle it, then develop a offense where he doesn't have to handle the ball and make all the decisions. He handles the ball entirely too much to throw 6 asst and almost 4 to's a game. He's shown he can throw 8 asst when he wants to, but the problem is, when does he want to?
The biggest problem I have with Francis versus The Great Point Guard Who Averaged 8-9-10 apg is that it's only a recent phenomenon that these kinds of guys won championships. More so, the one who did it most often was a 6' 9" pg-in-a-forward's-body superfreak who could just as easily play center as PG. More Qs: if the quality of the PG's ball handling is what determines championships, why hasn't Jason Kidd won a championship? Why did it take Bill Russell to get the Celtics into championship form when they had Bob Cousey to handle the ball for them? The question really should be, is Franchise good enough? I think by that measure, 6+ apg is good enough. I bet a study of championship teams would bear my assertion out. If there is any aspect of Steve's game that probably needs tuning, it's ball management and turnovers. The guys is a good but not great passer. If he didn't lose it liberally at times and better managed his game, he'd be more highly thought of. Dave.
How many championships did Isiah Thomas win? 2? How many did Magic win? Further, take a look at the historic rates of assists and these two guys. Top 5 maybe? Point is, the best assist man in history (Magic) was a physical freak. Comparing anyone to Magic Johnson is a loser's game, because guys like him come out once in a generation. Dave.
GATER, Jason Williams was already a good Ast to TO ratio type guy before Hubie came in. 2.4-2.6 are pretty good. After Hubie's influence however, he became GREAT. There is a HUGE difference between 1.6-1.7 and 2.4-2.6. Let Francis take on more of a scorers role and let him do what he does best. Let the guy take 22 shots a game as a scorer and take the shackles off him. Woofer, Iverson's Ast to TO ratio numbers are essentially the same as Steve's, however Philly offsets that by having a very steady PG in Eric Snow with Ast to TO ratio numbers in the 2.8-3.0 range.
Francis won't win a championship with himself being the best players on a team. He's second fiddle type of palyer on a championship contender. Putting him on the Mavs, Kings, Spurs and Lakers and you'll see what I mean. So arguing about whether Francis will win a ring based on playing style in reference of past record is kind of irrelevant. I mean, why argue about a complimentary player will win a ring or not? On the other side, since it's a fact pgs do not win many rings, it's really going against the odds to build teams around them. Furthermore, what I derived from your post is that pgs like Magic, Thomas and Oscar Robertson that can both score and pass win rings. Not guys who can only pass, like Stockton and Kidd, or guys who can only score, like Francis. Nobody can say outright that Francis won't become a 9 assists kind of guy, but like I said, it's going against the odds.
