Bill Russell is number 2 in rebounds per game all-time and he would be high in blocked shots if they kept that stat. Pistol Pete is only #15 is scoring per game all-time and loydd free isn't even on the list. As a matter of fact, the only player who proves your point is Larry Bird. Quote "oscar robertson, as well. he was a numbers king for years with zero rings until he got with the right team." So then you would agree to get off Francis's back.
pgabriel, francis is not a point guard. i don't care what #s he has compared to whoever. that said, he can become a winner. and that transition will not be indicated necessarily by numbers. it, should it happen, will be reflected in the way he plays the game: 1) bringing the ball up quicker. 2) running the fast break correctly. 3) playing better one-on-one defense. 4) making quicker decisions in the half court. none of those things are statistically trackable. but they are things that will lead him to more "w"s....the letter that matters.
Pgabriel You always take the jejune approach in your responses. This maybe because you do your thinking more with your heart rather than your head. "Max Contract" is a relative phrase (e.g. relative to the biggest contract in Franchise history). If you don't know that by now then I cannot help you - sue the school system. By the way, Payton Could have gotten the "Max" after his rookie contract. I don't know. I just want us to include that information or angle in this thread.
I am too lazy to look, but I bet why Stockton's and Payton's assists went up was because of their minutes played. Stevie does not have that excuse. He is getting 6 assists while playing 40 minutes a night.
There are plenty of guys who put up great stats but are nowhere near being great team leaders. Stats can be very misleading. Latrell Sprewell- 1996- 24.2 ppg, 6.3 Ast, 44.9fg%, 4.6 rebs That was his best year, but his first 5 scoring years he averaged 15.3, 21.0, 20.6,18.9, and 24.2 ppg. That is not so far behind Francis. Damon Stoudamire- First 3 years 19.0, 20.2, 19.4 ppg and over 8 assists each season! But then he went to a team where he wasn't controlling the ball 90% of the time and we saw the real Stoudamire. Juwan Howard- First 5 years- 17.0, 22.1, 19.1, 18.5, 18.9 ppg. His career scoring average is 17.9 ppg. No one is confusing him for a superstar these days, though in Washington he had some initial hype. Dallas got rid of him pretty quickly. These guys can put up big numbers, but their stats are very misleading.
Max Contract is not a relative phrase. Its the phrase that came from the new collective bargaining agreement. That's my point. If Gary Payton was a young player now, he would probably get the max. Back then there was no max, you could pay a player $100 million a year if you wanted. That's my point, it was relative back then, it isn't now.
If your going to use stats for PGs, atleast use the most important one, ast to to ratio. Payton Yr 1: 2.9 Yr 2: 2.9 Yr 3: 2.7 Yr 4: 2.9 Stockton Yr 1: 2.8 Yr 2: 3.6 Yr 3: 4.1 Yr 4: 4.3 Francis Yr 1: 1.7 Yr 2: 2.0 Yr 3: 1.6 Yr 4: 1.7 Hmmmm, which one doesnt belong? Let Steve Francis do what he does naturally, score. Stop trying to force a square peg through a round hold and make Steve into a distributor which he is not.
Why do you guys argue about the importance of numbers? Numbers obviously mean something, but not everything. No need to get hot about it. verse, Counting "w" is also a kind of stat, you do realize that, don't you? And weighing a player's success simply by counting rings is a bit too simple-minded. You don't try to imply that Horry is a more successful player than Hakeem, do you? Oh, and I agree that "Franchise" is worse than "White Chocolate" -- as nicknames.
No, I am pointing out that his great stats don't mean he is a great player. There is a reason he is stuck playing limited minutes in Portland and no one has traded for him. The question is- Is Steve Francis more like Kidd and Payton? Or is he more like Stoudamire and Sprewell?
pgabriel, all i'm saying is that it's ridiculous to look at the # of points or rebounds or assists a player gets and say....oh, he's great...or oh he sucks...or, oh he shot too much/too little. basketball games are played and won on the courts, not in the newspaper boxscores. and, what i was attempting to convey about those players is that if you look at their stats, you'd never be able to tell what kind of player or winner (or in some cases, what kind of loser) they actually were.
Here's another guy who puts up awesome stats but is by no means a great leader- Antoine Walker- Averaged 17.5, 22.4, 18.7, 20.5, and 23.4 ppg in his first 5 years. Over 8 rebounds each year. Over 5 assists per game in 2000 and 2001. He is a very good player, but no one will now mistake him for a Franchise player.
How about Jerry Stackhouse? 19.2 and 20.7 ppg in his first 2 years before being traded and struggled. He then went to Detroit and averaged 23.6, 29.8 (!), and 21.4 ppg in his next 3 years before being traded. Detroit realized that he was very good, but he wasn't a guy who would lead them to championships
A lot of people would love to have Sprewell on their team. Stoudemire is a good player. I would never argue these guys are great, they don't put up great stats anyway. Verse, The only point I'm conveying is you can't discount a players stats. If you look at the top players in each of the all-time categories, you will find players considered to be great. That's the point of my first post. Jordan is the all team leader in points per game, its not a friggin coincidence that he's considered the greatest by a lot of experts. And, Btw, Dominique, Pistol Pete, Alex English, Karl Malone, are all great players. Just because they don't have rings doesn't take away from that, its only one ring a year to go around. That argument is more ludicruous than stats aren't important.
