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Which team has the most FEARSOME lineup in baseball?

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by LiLStevie3, Jul 22, 2001.

  1. Nomar

    Nomar Member

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    Im going to have to agree with DBC on this one. nomar, mannny, everett, bichette, nixon, varitek...pretty nice order.

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  2. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    If 2 of the hitters weren't on the DL [​IMG]



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  3. Timing

    Timing Member

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    Haven and shanna are poster children for how statistics can be abused and misused. The purpose of a lead off hitter is to get on base. If Manny Ramirez led off for his team, he would walk less, strikeout more, likely hit for a lower average, have many more solo home runs, and have many fewer rbi. Now let's get to the on base aspect of it. Is Manny going to steal bases? No Is the pitcher going to be distracted by Manny at 1st base like he would a good base stealer? No Is Manny likely to score from 1st on a double the way a traditional lead off hitter would? No I could go on and one about that but hopefully you get that point. In fact all of Ramirez's offensive production would dip. Every single one of his numbers. Of course you all knew all of that because your calculators told you so. So then would Ramirez be any less of a hitter? No he wouldn't. You get so wrapped up in your statistics that you cannot apply them to the way baseball really works. The spot in a batting order is VERY important to the production of a lot of major leaguers.


    The assertion that a walk is as good as a single is obviously ridiculous. A single is much more likely to create an rbi than a walk. Much more likely to create an error than a walk. Much more likely to create a defensive lapse then a walk. And so on and so on. How often do you see a walk stretched into a double? Well you see it with singles a lot now don't ya?

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  4. Major

    Major Member

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    The purpose of a lead off hitter is to get on base.

    Agreed.

    If Manny Ramirez led off for his team, he would walk less, strikeout more, likely hit for a lower average, have many more solo home runs, and have many fewer rbi.

    He'd clearly have fewer RBI -- that has nothing to do with his hitting, but the fact that there are fewer people in front of him. Why would he walk less? Or strike out more? Or hit for a lower average?

    Is Manny going to steal bases? No

    That has nothing to do with how good a hitter you are. A player, yes. Hitter? No.

    Is the pitcher going to be distracted by Manny at 1st base like he would a good base stealer? No

    Same thing here. This has nothing to do with hitting.

    Is Manny likely to score from 1st on a double the way a traditional lead off hitter would? No

    Yet again, nothing to do with hitting.

    In fact all of Ramirez's offensive production would dip. Every single one of his numbers.

    Why? Why would he suddenly hit for less power? Why, having better hitters behind him, would he strike out more? Or walk less? If pitchers try to avoid walking him, then they'll be giving him better pitches to hit -- it all balances out.

    You get so wrapped up in your statistics that you cannot apply them to the way baseball really works.

    You get so wrapped up in trying to make your argument that you can't distinguish between being a good hitter and a good player.

    The spot in a batting order is VERY important to the production of a lot of major leaguers.

    The spot in the batting order has nothing to do with a player's production. A batter's production has everything to do with where they are placed in the batting order.

    So let's get back to square one:

    The purpose of a lead off hitter is to get on base.

    Manny Ramirez gets on base better than Ichiro. However, he brings other attributes to the table (power) that makes him a better 3-5 hitter.



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  5. Timing

    Timing Member

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    Oh my god. First it's production, now we're talking about hitters. Which one is it? OPS is a measure of PRODUCTION, not the measure of how good a HITTER you are. Why don't you figure out which one you want to talk about and then come back.

    Manny would not be walked as frequently as a lead off hitter because they would pitch to him more agressively than they would if he were hitting 3rd or 4th. There would on average be LESS people on base as a lead off hitter and again he would be pitched to more and walked less as a result. His walks would obviously decrease because of this and his strikeouts would obviously increase because of this because he is a high strikeout hitter. Not to mention as a lead off hitter he would have many MANY more plate appearances over the course of an entire season which result in more late inning at bats versus top notch closers. He would surely not hit for a higher average and walk more against closers then he would the run of the mill starter.


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    [This message has been edited by Timing (edited July 23, 2001).]
     
  6. haven

    haven Member

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    Seattle's lineup really isn't that great. Good hitting + terrific pitching ='s a great team. But don't overrate them because they win a lot. Things have fallen in very well for Seattle.

    Realistically, they should be winning their division, but they've also had a lot of luck what with injuries, one-run-games, etc.

    Houston or Cleveland. Probably Houston.

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  7. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    I don't know about that statement....Ichiro is the best leadoff hitter in the game and one of the top 5 hitters overall in the game. Boone is having a absolute monster year. That's 2 AL MVP candidates there. Plus they have Edgar Martinez, maybe the best DH ever to play the game, and John Olerud, one of the best pure hitters in the game. Mike Cameron is fulfilling his potential as a Mariner, making his first all-star team this year. I would say that this is a phenomenal lineup. You could argue that Boone and Cameron don't have histories of performing this well, but for this year, Seattle has one of the best lineups in baseball.


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  8. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Timing is correct on the fact that if Manny was a leadoff hitter, his RBIs and walks would decrease. His punchouts would increase as well, simply because he would have more at bats without all the walks and that pitchers would be more likely and less afraid to go after him without men on base. His RBIs would obviously decrease without all the runners on base when he is at the top of the lineup.

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    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center
     
  9. LiLStevie3

    LiLStevie3 Member

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    Shanna, I don't care if you judge Ichiro as a player or a hitter, either way he is absolutely phenomenal, and just about everybody other than you and haven will agree with me on that one.

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    "I look kind of dumpy. Look at my butt. And what kind of shoes do they have me wearing? At least they got the chinstrap beard right."
    -Kevin Garnett on the KG bobblehead dolls during KG bobblehead doll night at the Target Center
     

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