codell - First, I am going to apologize for the both of us for hijacking this thread off-topic. Secondly, as mentioned way early in my exchange I don't feel a 1 strong - 4 weak clearout is the only form of ISO. If a PnR is run with the goal of getting a more favorable matchup, that's ISO in my book. Francis and Yao running a PnR has the goal of getting Yao's taller, slower defender on Francis so SF can go 1on1 with him. I don't care how many times you want to "correct" me. If the end result is 1on1, it is some form of an isolation. Lastly, now that I see that this is evolving into to some form of an ARC/PRC debate, I am going to maintain my neutral stance but make one last comment. To say that RT didn't run any (or as much) ISO in 02-03 because the plays were "different" doesn't take into consideration any of the following factors: 1) Francis was injury plagued in 01-02 and relativley injury free in 02-03. The Rox offense "differs" for no other reason than Moochie playing massive minutes in SF's absence. 2) Mo Taylor missed all of 01-02. Any 02-03 play including him is going to be "different". The same is true for Rice to a lesser extent. 3) Kelvin Cato and Kevin Willis were the primary C's in 01-02. They have a markedly different skill set from Yao Ming. It wouldn't take much coaching skill to defend a Cato/Willis PnR differently from a Yao PnR. Thus the defense determined how the play would continue more than the design of the offensive team. 4) Kenny Thomas was on the Rox 01-02 for the whole season and only part of 02-03. The offensive differences between Posey and KT would make a play look "different". 5) 2001-02 was the first year for the zone. It was not instituted completely overnight. The full impact did not hit until 02-03. Any play (ISO or otherwise) will look "different" when going against a zone. I contend there was more zone D played in 02-03. BTW - I went back and watched a tape. The 2002-03 selection was early season at home versus the Kings. There were 1S-4W plays/shots at the following points: KT - 11:28 Q1 KT - 10:32 Q1 YM - 9:58 Q1 (after PnR) SF - 9:29 Q1 YM - 6:23 Q1 CM - 3:52 Q1 YM - 2:32 Q1 (reversed ball to weakside via pass to teammate straight on to basket but at the 3pt line - result = CM 3 from corner) That's all I needed to see.
Gater, First, by your definition, I will be looking for you to call a vast majority of the offenses run in the league ISO offenses as long as there is no weakside movement (again, I refuse to see no weakside movement and say "look, its an ISO or ISO like") or if there is a PnR with no movement weakside. IMO, you are choosing to call the PnR a two man ISO (even though technically thats ok), for the sole purpose of saying "see, Rudy still has an offense with ISO in it and thats why he was fired because he couldn't design an offense that worked". Second, a 4 weak clearout and one ballhandler strong side is a true ISO and that is what was ran frequently before last year. This is not what we ran last year at all. Again, I am fine if you want to call what we did a two man ISO (even though when Utah does it, its called a PnR), as long as you don't insinuate that the true ISO we ran two years ago and the two man ISO (or PnR) we ran this year are the same. Third, I again have to disagree that going 1on1 is an ISO. Just no true. If we use that defintion, then anytime a player gets the ball with his back to the basket, its an ISO. That means that Shaq and Yao are mainly ISO players. lol Man, thats the objective right??? To get your best player the ball and get him to take a shot or make a move without being doubled (1 on 1)??? Last, the reasons you gave for our offense being difference last year fall in line with what I am saying. Do offenses not change when your best players aren't playing?? Of course. Rudy relied on ISO becasue Moo was running the offense and thats the only way he can come close to be efficient (based purely on his style of play (lots of dribbling)). Moo's game is about breaking down his man and making a move. ISO is about the only way to go with him. Because Francis and Mo were back last year, the offense changed to incorporate or reincorporate their talents. Also, we'll just have to disagree with Cato/Willis being just as much of a PnR threat as Yao (I don't remember Cato and Willis being the picker nearly as much as Yao was last season, nor the threat). Our offenses weren't built around KT and Posey so I am not sure what your point is there. They are considered options on O and not the main focus like Yao/Steve/Cat. I agree about the zone, but don't agree about it making an ISO look different, specifically, making our 2001-2002 offense and 2002-2003 offense look differenct even though they are the same. The heavy incorporation of zones made it virtually impossible to be effective and thus, that is one of the reasons why Rudy got rid of the one man ISO. I actually watched the NJ @ Hou game last night (2 quarters) and didn't see ISO (unless it was a broken play where Francis waved his teamates off) there at all(most of the time, the camera angle misses a weakside player sliding over to the strong side after the strongside entry passers cuts through to the weakside (but if you watch the topside/weakside defender, you can tell he is sliding over strongside to cover our guy who moved)). I did see alot of cutting, curls, high post handoffs, and effective PnRs (not alot of weakside movement). This is the game where we blew NJ out of the water early. Damn it was beautiful watching how efficient that offense could be. (I have the King/Rocket game too I think; I will go take a look and see if we are just not seeing things the same way). Come on Gater. If you are going to keep callingl a PnR a two man ISO, then call what Dallas and Utah does a two man ISO and don't act like its an offense that is exclusive to Rudy or that its a non efficient offense in general. EDIT: BTW, when you watch your tapes, watch the plays were Yao/Steve run the PnR and off the pick, Yao drops down into the lane (PnR for the purpose of Yao sealing off his man in motion to prevent fronting), Yao receiving the pass, Steve cutting through to the weaksideand a weakside offensive player sliding over to the strongside. This is distinctly different from the plays we ran the year before (mainly because Willis and Cato weren't main options and couldn't score efficiently from this spot lilke Yao could). This was a bread and butter play and was used quite often. I hope then you will acknowledge that was indeed movement on the weakside at times (watch Mo or Griff darting into the lane too).
I'll vote for Mo as player who will improve the most under JVG's system, barring a trade that will rob us of Mo (but liberate us from his contract?) A lot of his improvement will be due to the fact that he is another year removed from injury and JVG will loosen up the reins a bit, as far as not treating him with kid gloves, and tighten the reins too, giving him a system in which to operate. Pat Ewing will also be good for Mo. Ewing and JVG will need patience for EG, and he's still not quite there yet (obviously).
The end result was an ISO because of a broken play. Exactly. Offensive sets often break down into things they are intended to be because they aren't run correctly or because the ballhandler doesn't make the right reads. This is Francis' history in its essence. Francis doesn't make the right decisions or good decisions. Just because a play broke down into an ISO (which was rare), doesn't mean the intent of that play was an ISO to begin with (for which, Rudy can't be blamed).
codell - If you 1) only recognize 1S-4W as the only "true" isolation and 2) can't see or won't admit that any form of offense which creates 1on1 basketball is by design an attempt to isolate favorable matchups and 3) ignore multiple links to coaches making reference to 2 man PnR as isolation and a reference by Jim Boylen that "ISO is still the bread and butter" and 4) fail to acknowledge that the 02-03 Rockets spent too much time dribbling and too little time moving and passing and 5) think the Rockets 2002-03 offense was a thing of beauty because they beat the Nets by 12 after NJ had played at DAL & SA within the prior 4 days and NJ managed just 8 FB points and was 0-9 on 3's... then I'm getting off of this merry-go-round. BTW - I taped over that NJ game because I didn't think I could learn much from it. But the Rockets must be incredibly smart because only 4 days earlier they had the following 1S-4W sets against the Pistons: EG - 9:50 Q1 YM - 8:05 Q1 CM - 7:12 Q1 EG - 5:56 Q1 SF - 4:30 Q1 MT - 0:58 Q1 SIX count 'em SIX 1S-4W in one quarter.
I think Francis will be the definitive best pure PG with Van Gundy. Yao´s numbers will improve, and francis' assits too. CAT will make around 15 points and fewer minutes, but will be important and of course starter. Mo Taylor could be the most improved player for the rockets. He will be starter and will take more rebounds and a solid minutes. But I think Moochie will play only 10 minutes like backup of Francis. The same with Cato and Ming. I can't hope Nachbar playing with Adrian, Rice and Pike. I think this players will play the same + or -. So I hope a dinamic Rockets (sure more than Rudy´s rockets -this rockets won't start to play offense with 10 seconds of possesion-) with more points tahn last year, and you can say Jeff is a defensive mental coach but... I see that.
Gater, codell, Forgive me for jumping in about the definition of ISO. I remember Rudy once said (I think it's on radio, which edc provided on the board) that, 1. We didn't do as much ISOs this year as many other teams, and 2. The goal of any offensive set was always trying to get the ball to end up in a player's hand who faced with weaker defense--isolation. In other words, you always want your offensive play to end with a good scorer away from the crowd. So, isolation as a goal is not the same as ISO as an offensive set. Posting up is a form of isolation. When someone comes in to double team the post player and he kicks it out to an open perimeter guy, it's also a form of isolation. I hope this clarify the debate somewhat. If my understanding is correct, ISO as a set is what codell defines, 1S 4W. And isolation as an offensive goal is not something we should avoid. Our problem was execution and on-court decision making, including off ball movement, not offensive sets.
granted, they might have not run as many ISOs as other teams, but they sure as heck didn't run an offense otherwise. that, my friends, is called streetball.
Ok, Smeg scouted the first quarter of the Rockets @ home versus the Kings on the 10th of December, hope this is the same game Gater did, i can't find the detroit game so pick another later and i can do that. I have listed the offenses for the first quarter, i left out any of the fastbreaks, but tried to be fairly detailed, including the result of the play, you guys can then determine which definition of iso it fall into. Some of the terminology may be different so just ask if something doesn't make sense. 1. Kenny in Low Post, guard who made entry pass makes strongside cut past kenny to make 4 players weakside while Kenny scores. 2. Kenny in low post again, with two single downscreens on weakside. 3. Yao post-up, with strong side cut from feeder on strong side wing, also a X-cut from two players at the top of the keyway (ie from the two guard spots in a 4 out alignment) 4. A pick n pop, then Steve 1 on 1 from the wing 5. Steve kicks ball to Cat across the top, Yao sets back screen on steve you cut down the keyway, Yao then into pick n roll with Cat, Cat drives and dumps to rolling Yao for 2 FTs (love this play) 6. Yao Posts up in Low block, steve with strong side cut after feed for pass from Yao and gets fouled. 7. Pick n Roll Steve and Yao, turnover Steve dribbles off leg. 8. Cat with a soft drive to draw webber and makes a bad pass trying to get it to open Kenny 9. Cat hand off to kenny for Kenny to hit wide open 18fter 10. Yao poss up in low block - no cuts 11. Yao posts up in low block, strongside guard and forward cuts, shots missed. 12. Kenny gets ball at high post, Steve makes ball side baseline cut and Cat cuts down keyway from weakside guard spot, Kenny drives for a lay-up. 13. Steve dribbles thru all the kings players for lay-up and foul, during this he missed Yao twice wide open under basket. 14. Rice drive - turnover 15. Kenny with ball at high post, not much other movement aside from guards exchanging positions. 16. Kenny pops from high post to 3 pt line and gets the ball, Yao flashes across the paint from weakside for feed from kenny, 2 FTs 17. Rice missed 3 in transition. 18. Yao post-up in low block, feed from Steve, Steve moves away from 45 to the top of the 3 pt line, ball comes out and is reversed to the far corner for a Cat 3, 4 passes i think. 19. Kenny feeds Rice in the low block, Kenny cuts past Rice after feed, Rice misses shot and kenny and Yao miss 3 putbacks. 20. Cat pops to the 3 pts at top from the low block (like this cut), Christie has hands at side and Cat shoots and misses 3, which i am sure was met by what the hell is that by bbs (he was wide open and should shoot this) 21. Rice feeds Cato in high post then down screen weakside for Cat who curls off the screen for hand off from Cato, Cat drive to basket gets smashed and some how no call. Some short foot notes The Kings do move off the ball, but there is a just as much 1 on 1 (not sure if this is iso or not in the true sense) as the rockets, they cut after passes, and if they are not there then 1 on 1 baby. Damn i miss Kenny, blame Rudy if you think he is a black, he was clearly our best interior defender, and best offensive and defensive rebounder and a great hustler, the more i was the games from early in the season and then compare them to games i saw live late in the season the more i think we would have made the playoffs with Kenny, instead of the shadow puppets Eggie and MoT. another thing often (also in other games) Yao and other end up catching the ball 1 metre or more out from the low block, the need to get better at establishing position closer to the basket.
I am going to go with Eddie. I believe that JVG can get Eddie to do what Marcus Camby(before the plethora of injuries)did for the Knicks. Slashing to the basket with/without the ball, be a menace in the paint, be more active and quit relying on the long 3-ptrs, hovering around the basket and rim. Eddie has outside range, but isn't consistent enough to base his game on. He can already block shots, but if he can be a force on the offensive glass and IMO, I believe he can be just that. And with his long wingspan could be a bigger factor while playing zone. But not too far behind I have Mo Taylor. Mo isn't the prototype '4' that you would like, but he is a scorer. Has a very good offensive game, unfortunately matched by a wretched defensive game. Would benefit from a zone defense. JVG must get Mo to rebound the ball on both sides of the ball. Having Eddie play 3 and Mo play 4 at times could work very well for the Rockets. I am looking forward to the look of the Rockets, new uni's, new coach, new arena, and new........mindset.
W/o a doubt it'll be Yao Ming. Under JVG the offense will flow through him. He'll get a lot more touches. He'll have a year of NBA seasoning under his belt and will know what to expect. He's stronger. He'll have less media attention and JVG will use all of his versatility to expand our team. Yao will flourish under JVG, because he's coachable and our very best "team" player. JVG will love him and help him reach his potential...IMHO.
