Here we go again. Because I disagree with what someone says about JVG that means I think he is perfect. Whatever! JVG isn't perfect in any aspect, especially in managing personalities. That is the hardest thing for a manager to do. It's a very inexact science. The speculation you and others make about him being "too rigid" (or on the opposite side "unfair"/"unequal") is ridiculous at times because none of you have the facts of what happens behind the scenes. You give him no credit for difficult fruitcakes he has managed well and automatically blame him for Snyder's and Fatzi's problems without having a clue. If this makes you or anyone else think I'm a JVG "apologist" then I can't help you. I said before the season that this was JVG's "make or break" year. I stand by that. So far, I think he's done a very good job. In fact, so far I would put him at 2nd or 3rd place for coach of the year. Final judgment must be made after the playoffs conclude. If we have a healthy team and lose to the Jazz, that would be very tough to swallow. The Rockets must also decide if they can find a better coach.
Actually, I compared him to combination of Rafer and Battier. I think that's accurate. D.J. actually wasn't an efficient scorer. In his years with Boston he had a .510 TS%, which was well below the league average at that time. He wasn't considered a good outside shooter, but he earned a reputation as a clutch shooter in big games.
Come on, durvasa... did you see DJ play? That post reads like you're using stats to compare him to Rafer, for god's sake, which I find incredibly offensive, seeing as how the man just passed away. You don't think Johnson was a star? How about a 5 time All-Star. Honors: NBA champion (1979, '84, '86); NBA Finals MVP (1979); All-NBA First Team (1981); All-NBA Second Team (1980); All-Defensive First Team (1979-83, '87); All-Defensive Second Team (1984-86); Five-time NBA All-Star 1979-82, '85). http://www.nba.com/history/players/djohnson_summary.html You should be embarrassed.
I was talking about DJ in Boston. He was an allstar once while in Boston. Look -- I'm not saying he wasn't far, FAR better player than Rafer. But he wasn't a star player in the traditional sense -- he wasn't a 1st or 2nd or even 3rd offensive option a lot of the time. He had a great impact on winning because of his defense, which is why I also compared him to Battier. He also was a guy who didn't have a great outside shot but ran the offense well -- in some respects, that's comparable to Rafer. But he was a "glue guy" -- he wasn't someone you relied on to carry the offense. Yet, he was playing 35-37 minutes a game most seasons. Was that too much, considering his role on that team?
DJ frequently played more minutes than that, and didn't have a problem doing it, although he looked awfully tired in warmups or getting his car washed. The guy just looked haggard, no matter how many minutes he played. I understand your comparison to Battier, even with the different positions, because DJ was a glue guy, who did all the little things, and things not so little, to produce wins, but weren't always noticed. I simply can't see any comparison to Alston, however. DJ was a far better shooter than Rafer, shooting .445 for his career. He didn't usually have great range, but he was an excellent at mid-range (which I consider an outside shot), and wasn't afraid to take it to the basket. Hell, I don't think he was afraid of anything. DJ had better averages in field goal %, FT shooting, rebounding, steals, assists, and Rafer has a very slight advantage only with turnovers, which is probably caused by Johnson playing more minutes. I'm trying not to bust your chops here, but I just can't find a reasonable basis for making comparisons between Rafer and DJ. I don't see it, and I don't see it because it doesn't exist, unless one wants to compare a mediocre PG with a All-Star PG who could shoot for a good percentage, make the clutch shot, the great pass, the critical rebound while being amongst the trees, not turn the ball over, and happens to have been one of the all-time great defensive back court players ever to lace them up.
I'm not going to dispute that DJ was a far better player than Rafer. But he didn't shoot for good percentage. You're ignoring that the league average FG% in those years was around 48%. He was shooting under 45%. His TS% was usually well below the league average. Granted, Rafer's is even worse, but not by much (because he at least hits threes at a decent percentage). Rafer, as frustrating as his play can be, somehow makes our offense flow much better compared to when he's not on the court. I think he adds a lot of value to our team. If he got injured, our offense would suffer significantly. In that respect, DJ's role (offensively) is similar to Rafer's. Uh oh. I see where this is going. Ok, just forget the DJ/Rafer comparisons. All I'm saying is DJ fit the profile of a "role player" for a lot of those Celtics teams, and he played a ton of minutes.
I just don't buy it. Rafer is the best point guard on the team playing his natural position, but he hurts the offense by hoisting up shots that should have been passed to his teammates, a part of his job description that he ignores far too often. I'll give you an example, since you are enamored with numbers... Rafer, for his career, has shot 3985 times, with 1777 of them 3 point attempts. DJ, on the other hand, had 13,100 shot attempts, and 464 of them were 3 point attempts. What does that tell you? Johnson knew what his range was, and rarely went outside it. He had the intelligence not to, except in extremis. I just don't see the comparison between the two. DJ had a huge skill set and did everything better than Rafer. I would include 3 point shooting, because Rafer far to often shoots them when he shouldn't, to the detriment of the team. (that's an understatement) DJ didn't, because he was so busy doing all those other things Rafer attempts to do, except he actually did them. Sorry, durvasa, but I don't think you have a leg to stand on. To paraphrase the late Lloyd Bentsen, "I saw Dennis Johnson play. He was a player I admired. Rafer Alston, sir, is no Dennis Johnson."
The major goal with scoring is to maximize points scored per scoring attempt -- not simply to have the best FG%. Yes, credit DJ for knowing his limitations, but it's also true that the 3-point shot is a powerful weapon if you know how to use it and he didn't it. His scoring efficiency, as I said, was well below league average like Rafer's is right now. If you only look at FG%, and you do so from today's perspective, hey 44% or 45% looks pretty good. But for that time it wasn't, and his overall scoring efficiency just wasn't that great. Again, I'm not suggesting that Rafer is close to the player DJ was. But to say that DJ was far better and base that on him shooting for percentage -- well, I don't agree with that argument. DJ had a lot of great qualities; his ability to shoot for percentage wasn't one of them.
"To me it doesn't help JVG rapior with the whole team when we are up by 20+ in the late 3rd quarter or 4th and still playing starters. It just doesn't make any sense, " I guess that is why D'Antoni is so unpopular with his players - a blowout win and he basically goes 8 deep, which is pretty much true to form. You won't find any other coach who game after game plays his starters and top 2-3 subs so many minutes.
Rafer is not, he averaged more mpg last season. Battier is, but he came from those Memphis teams that had funky distribution of minutes. Even so, he is averaging less than 2 minutes per game more than last season. Neither of them is in the top 25 of mpg in the NBA (Bats is 33rd I think). PJ plays 2 players 39 minutes per game (Kobe and Odom). Riles is playing 1 guy 38.9 mpg (Wade). Pops does keep the minutes low for everyone. As for the good teams, Avery has 1 guy playing 36.5 mpg (Dirk) and D'Antoni has 2 guys playing 37 or so mpg (role player Raja Bell and third option Shawn Marion). So, outside of Pop, they don't have a problem using players for the same amount of time that Jeff uses Shane and Rafer.
Shooting percentage is only one thing I mentioned. You say, "it's also true that the 3-point shot is a powerful weapon if you know how to use it and he didn't," and I disagree with that assertion. Alston doesn't know when to not take 3-point shots, in my opinion, whereas DJ did. Alston also doesn't have anything near the skill set DJ had, or the impact on the game DJ had. Rafer also doesn't shoot nearly as well as DJ did, except from 3-point range, regardless of how you chose to compare DJ to others when DJ was playing, instead of comparing him to Alston only when it serves whatever purpose you have. (I admit to being more than a little mystified) Alston's shot selection from the 3-point line is awful, in my opinion, more often than not. DID you watch Johnson play while he was playing, or have you only seen him on NBA Classic? I find it hard to believe you actually saw him play. If you had, I would be shocked to see you compare Alston to him favorably.
I've watched him on NBA Classic. A few regular season games, but mostly playoff games when he was supposed to be at his best. Is that not actually watching him play? Those games don't count? The only thing I disagreed with was your claim that DJ shot for percentage. That's simply not true in any meaningful sense. It's a fact that he wasn't an efficient scorer while with the Celtics. Even if I watched every single minute of every game he played, that fact doesn't change. Or would you like to argue that 1 + 1 doesn't equal 2? Be my guest. This is a huge digression from the original point of discussion -- playing role players heavy minutes. I've already answered my own question earlier in the thread. The minutes you get should be be proportional to the disparity between you and your replacement. It's not about being a "role player", per se, but rather how good is the guy behind you comparatively. Even though DJ fit the profile of a role player, he was a great player who had a strongly positive impact on his team. That's why he played heavy minutes. Nothing else needs to be said about him in this thread. Others may disagree, but I think Rafer and Battier also are significantly better in their roles compared to their replacement. We don't have another PG who runs our team's offense nearly as well. And it should be well known what all Battier brings to our overall level of play. Is the value they provide over their replacement players greater than that of other team's role players? This is what it boils down to. Instead of wasting time arguing how Dennis Johnson is better than Rafer, which is obvious, let's focus on something relevant.
I have a problem with the way you sometimes use stats to compare players. In this case, I suspected that you didn't watch DJ play, except on NBA Classic, which didn't stop you from comparing him, to a degree, with Alston. It compares, in my opinion, with people here using stats, after games they didn't see, to make some sweeping point. It's not the same as watching the games. Stats don't tell the whole story, by a long shot. I think we've gone around enough on the subject. I'm content that I made my point and declare victory. You can press on with your endeavor!
So, watching a player play on NBA Classic is not the same as watching them player somewhere else? You realize that doesn't make any sense, right? And what is the "sweeping point" you think I made? What is the "whole story" you think I'm trying to tell? I don't think you actually understand what this whole discussion has been about. You saw Dennis Johnson and Rafer in a sentence together, and you went off on your own. Congrats. You won an argument against some imaginary figure claiming Rafer is as good as Dennis Johnosn.
Go back and look at your posts. You are the one who brought up DJ in the context of using him in a favorable comparison to Alston, by putting him together with Battier. You've persisted. It's the way you've done it that bothers me. I think it does Johnson, may he rest in peace, a disservice. You may post all the "roll-eyes" you wish, but if you can't discern the difference between seeing a few games on NBA Classic, and watching several seasons of NBA play involving the player mentioned, while he was playing, then I have nothing further to add in this thread. Carry on.
Not sure what that sentence means. If you combine what Battier and Alston provide our team in terms of their role, that is definitely comparable to what Dennis Johnson gave the Celtics. In no way should that suggest that Rafer is nearly as good a player as DJ. In fact, I've said multiple times already that he isn't. My initial post, that you responded to, I cited the Usg metric. My only purpose in using that stat was to show that his usage (how frequently he shot the ball, turned it over, got an assist) indicated he wasn't dominating the ball like star players do. I used Rafer as a baseline, but I could have easily used someone else. If you think I was somehow favorably comparing Rafer to DJ in that post, than you misunderstood my point. Other than that post, the only thing I said regarding Dennis Johnson was that he wasn't an efficient scorer. This is fact, and it is indisputable. That doesn't mean he didn't have a tendency to hit big shots, or come improve his play in the playoff games, but generally speaking wasn't an efficient scorer. Dennis Johnson's recent death has nothing to do with this discussion, and I'm not going to change my views on him or his game because of it. I don't know what your motivation is in bringing it up in the context of a basketball discussion, twice now. I appears like you're trying to shame me into not bringing up any of his deficiencies, and I don't think that's appropriate on your part. I've said nothing in this thread that isn't backed up by fact and the commentary of reporters/players who knew DJ's game very well. If you watch players play for a long time, you get a better sense of what things they do well and not so well that don't show up in a box score. And if you watch games in real time, versus in a recording many years later, you tend to be more emotionally invested in the games and consequentially you might pay closer attention. However, if the games occurred 20 years ago, it's quite possible that you would recall more details from a recent NBA Classic broadcast than the original airing. (one last attempt to clarify) In my case, I made a general comment about DJ's role on the Celtics (specifically, in the years he was playing 35-37 mpg) being similar to Rafer and Battier's role, combined, on our team. This comment was made, in part, from games I've watched him play over the last few years on NBA Classic, in part from the stats, and largely from commentary about him from other people. It was also a passing comment, but unforunately as is usually the case the fire spread, and now I'm composing 1000 word essays trying to explain myself. If somehow it's still not clear to you -- I think we'd be much better with DJ instead of Rafer as our PG. I mean, I'd hope that goes without saying, but maybe it doesn't. On offense, DJ helped the Celtics in the same way that Rafer helps the Rockets when he's playing at his best. That's why I said "role" -- when Rafer is playing like he's supposed to play and doing the things his role dictates, he provides us some of the things DJ provided those Celtic teams. Making the correct pass, directing the offense, hitting big shots in the fourth quarter. Of course, DJ was a much better natural scorer and definitely a far better finisher than Rafer.
You may have gathered that I'm not wild about Rafer as our starting point, which certainly affected my response to your use of DJ while talking about him and Battier. I may have overreacted, to a degree, but you have to understand that I watched Johnson contribute mightily to giving the Rockets fits during his career, regardless of who he was playing with. (although his stint with the Celtics stands out, at least for me) I also, as I said, have a bit of a problem with people using stats to compare great players of the past to players of today, when they didn't see them play during their career. Now, to be fair, you can't add a few decades to your life, or travel back in a time machine, being limited to those stats and the few games shown on NBA Classic, and the like. That's fine, but I hope you give the fact that you didn't see the games when they were played some weight. You appear to do that in the post I quoted, which I appreciate.
I don't profess to be an expert on the intangibles Johnson provided the Celtics. And I think I have a good understanding of the limitations with basketball stats. That's why I talked about his "scoring efficiency" using TS%. I was disputing another poster's use of FG%, which I believe is a more limited, and less informative, statistic. But even TS%, I'll concede, has it's limitations. For instance, DJ had a tendency to hit shots in the crucial moments of a game, but that isn't apparent just looking at an overall percentage.
Pardon me for making an oblique comment... While reading this thread a book came to mind that I read many years ago when I was a real football junkie, entitled, "Instant Replay", by Jerry Kramer. I guess it was the comments about JVG's abilities as a coach that caused me to remember it. I don't even remember the book that well it was so long ago. But it was a very good read. I DO remember that after reading it I understood the long shadow that Vince Lombardi cast across all of pro football. Think I'll go back and read that again in the near future to see if JVG could learn anything from it.
