I am an Indiana U Alum, so I am partially biased. I think he has potential, but it is way too early to tell. His looks and his age don't really match, similar to Mutumbo. You have to really wonder if they are actually how old they claim themselves to be.
Obviously you are not one of these GMs and owners, definately not Alex. You are a bb fans just like the rest of us, not a businessman. I understand your choice, however never assume 'every GM and owner' will do the same as you.
I think you guys way overrate skill set over effectiveness and leadership. Wade took a bunch of hasbeens and beat teams far more talented. I honestly don't think any other player in the NBA instead of Wade could have delivered the title for the Heat. Shaq was actually a negative influence in the finals, they did better when he was off the court because they would then run everything through Wade and could better match-up with Dallas's athleticism. Look at it this way...Dirk had much better team and much talent around him and Wade beat him. Wade's stats were far superior, his team won, and Wade made all the cltuch plays. Also, Kobe had a younger Shaq and younger Payton, and Kobe personally got taken out completely by the Pistons. Yet the Pistons havn't been able to handle a healthy DWade for 2 years (probably only beat him 2 years ago b/c of injury). I am sure you will get no argument from them who is the more formidable guy to beat. Maybe Wade's game is somewhat simple, but just because it is simple (Shaq was simple too) doesn't mean it is easy to contain. His combination of quickness, vision, body control, explosiveness, power, finese/touch, and clutchness inside 20 feet is simply unparalled--the closets thing to Jordan since Jordan. Wade is the most unstoppable and clutch force in the half court in the game right now, and has leadership abilities to get his whole team behind his back. If he was anything less the Heat would not have had a title. But I would probably take Lebron over Wade. Both have off the chart talent and leadership abilities (the latter Kobe is lacking, that and his older age sets him way behind these two for building a team). Wade is slightly better in the half court IMO than Lebron, which is what playoff BB is about, but Lebron is younger and better in transition. I'd love to choose either, but yeah I'd lean towards Lebron for his future potential even if he isn't quite Wade yet in the half court.
even from a business standpoint, why would you take yao over lebron? Because of China? I thought ticket sales and tv time played a large role in the value of a franchise, and i think, last i checked, lebron doubled the attendance of fans, while yao, which it might not have been even yao who put more fans in the seats, had t-mac, and added only 3,000 fans since his rookie year. 2002-03 Attendance Home Road Overall RNK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS TOTAL AVG PCT 1 Detroit 41 839,278 20,470 92.7 41 658,205 16,053 83.6 82 1,497,483 18,261 88.5 2 Washington 41 827,093 20,173 97.6 41 791,761 19,311 100.0 82 1,618,854 19,742 98.7 3 Dallas 41 816,429 19,912 103.7 41 722,349 17,618 92.3 82 1,538,778 18,765 98.0 4 Philadelphia 41 807,097 19,685 96.3 41 754,745 18,408 95.0 82 1,561,842 19,046 95.7 5 Chicago 41 804,309 19,617 90.4 41 667,020 16,268 84.6 82 1,471,329 17,943 87.6 6 Portland 41 796,258 19,420 97.2 41 674,807 16,458 86.4 82 1,471,065 17,939 91.9 7 Utah 41 786,034 19,171 96.3 41 680,014 16,585 87.0 82 1,466,048 17,878 91.8 8 New York 41 779,479 19,011 96.2 41 701,303 17,104 88.6 82 1,480,782 18,058 92.4 9 LA Lakers 41 777,888 18,972 98.4 41 783,400 19,107 100.1 82 1,561,288 19,040 99.3 10 Toronto 41 777,507 18,963 95.8 41 676,884 16,509 85.5 82 1,454,391 17,736 90.7 11 San Antonio 41 735,970 17,950 97.0 41 678,954 16,559 86.6 82 1,414,924 17,255 91.7 12 Sacramento 41 709,997 17,317 100.0 41 734,892 17,924 93.5 82 1,444,889 17,620 96.6 13 Boston 41 709,049 17,293 92.9 41 707,808 17,263 89.3 82 1,416,857 17,278 91.0 14 LA Clippers 41 706,471 17,231 90.8 41 667,323 16,276 85.2 82 1,373,794 16,753 88.0 15 Indiana 41 670,461 16,352 89.1 41 691,115 16,856 86.6 82 1,361,576 16,604 87.8 16 Phoenix 41 666,559 16,257 85.5 41 669,069 16,318 85.5 82 1,335,628 16,288 85.5 17 Milwaukee 41 665,966 16,243 86.8 41 669,434 16,327 84.1 82 1,335,400 16,285 85.4 18 Minnesota 41 643,684 15,699 82.6 41 682,967 16,657 87.2 82 1,326,651 16,178 84.9 19 NO/Oklahoma City 41 641,683 15,650 91.0 41 675,754 16,481 84.8 82 1,317,437 16,066 87.7 20 Seattle 41 637,194 15,541 91.0 41 665,983 16,243 84.6 82 1,303,177 15,892 87.6 21 Golden State 41 634,935 15,486 79.0 41 668,186 16,297 85.5 82 1,303,121 15,891 82.2 22 Miami 41 628,242 15,322 78.2 41 649,630 15,844 82.1 82 1,277,872 15,583 80.1 23 New Jersey 41 622,574 15,184 75.7 41 695,230 16,956 87.7 82 1,317,804 16,070 81.6 24 Memphis 41 611,322 14,910 74.0 41 667,360 16,277 85.5 82 1,278,682 15,593 79.6 25 Denver 41 607,813 14,824 77.6 41 668,289 16,299 85.4 82 1,276,102 15,562 81.5 26 Orlando 41 605,901 14,778 85.7 41 709,536 17,305 89.2 82 1,315,437 16,041 87.6 27 Houston 41 565,166 13,784 84.6 41 734,681 17,919 93.2 82 1,299,847 15,851 89.3 28 Atlanta 41 528,655 12,894 66.3 41 668,082 16,294 84.0 82 1,196,737 14,594 75.1 29 Cleveland 41 471,374 11,496 55.9 41 659,607 16,087 83.4 82 1,130,981 13,792 69.2 2003-04 Attendance Home Road Overall RNK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS TOTAL AVG PCT 1 Detroit 41 872,902 21,290 96.4 41 685,399 16,717 86.1 82 1,558,301 19,003 91.6 2 Dallas 41 825,594 20,136 104.9 40 697,391 17,434 90.3 81 1,522,985 18,802 97.6 3 Chicago 41 809,177 19,736 86.3 39 641,366 16,445 84.8 80 1,450,543 18,131 85.6 4 Philadelphia 41 788,128 19,222 91.5 40 709,813 17,745 90.8 81 1,497,941 18,493 91.2 5 Utah 40 765,419 19,135 93.8 41 678,034 16,537 86.0 81 1,443,453 17,820 90.0 6 New York 39 744,213 19,082 96.6 41 721,154 17,589 90.1 80 1,465,367 18,317 93.3 7 LA Lakers 41 777,757 18,969 99.5 40 773,986 19,349 100.4 81 1,551,743 19,157 100.0 8 Toronto 41 750,608 18,307 92.5 40 659,652 16,491 84.1 81 1,410,260 17,410 88.3 9 Cleveland 41 749,790 18,287 89.2 40 749,210 18,730 96.1 81 1,499,000 18,506 92.5 10 San Antonio 40 720,909 18,022 97.4 41 711,250 17,347 89.8 81 1,432,159 17,680 93.5 11 Minnesota 41 723,071 17,635 95.5 40 713,010 17,825 92.4 81 1,436,081 17,729 94.0 12 Denver 41 721,476 17,596 92.1 40 685,776 17,144 88.8 81 1,407,252 17,373 90.5 13 Sacramento 41 709,997 17,317 100.0 40 710,511 17,762 91.6 81 1,420,508 17,537 95.6 14 Portland 40 663,429 16,585 80.6 41 667,592 16,282 84.7 81 1,331,021 16,432 82.6 15 Indiana 40 662,247 16,556 89.5 41 726,142 17,710 90.4 81 1,388,389 17,140 90.0 16 Milwaukee 40 657,269 16,431 87.8 41 662,767 16,165 82.5 81 1,320,036 16,296 85.1 17 Phoenix 41 670,385 16,350 86.0 40 655,026 16,375 85.0 81 1,325,411 16,363 85.5 18 Boston 40 648,099 16,202 82.7 41 695,160 16,955 87.0 81 1,343,259 16,583 84.9 19 LA Clippers 40 646,034 16,150 86.9 41 666,587 16,258 86.1 81 1,312,621 16,205 86.5 20 Golden State 40 645,817 16,145 84.1 41 651,304 15,885 82.3 81 1,297,121 16,013 83.2 21 Washington 40 628,159 15,703 78.5 41 656,333 16,008 81.9 81 1,284,492 15,857 80.2 22 Houston 40 622,625 15,565 85.1 41 728,522 17,768 91.9 81 1,351,147 16,680 88.6 23 Seattle 41 625,479 15,255 92.0 40 671,186 16,779 88.6 81 1,296,665 16,008 90.2 24 Miami 40 608,309 15,207 77.6 41 677,500 16,524 84.6 81 1,285,809 15,874 81.1 25 Memphis 40 603,372 15,084 71.8 41 684,513 16,695 86.9 81 1,287,885 15,899 79.1 26 New Jersey 41 613,051 14,952 74.6 40 695,178 17,379 89.1 81 1,308,229 16,150 81.7 27 Orlando 40 574,377 14,359 83.3 41 688,461 16,791 85.5 81 1,262,838 15,590 84.5 28 NO/Oklahoma City 41 587,613 14,332 83.3 40 666,762 16,669 84.8 81 1,254,375 15,486 84.1 29 Atlanta 41 565,728 13,798 69.0 40 651,449 16,286 83.6 81 1,217,177 15,026 76.1 2005-06 Attendance Home Road Overall RNK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS TOTAL AVG PCT 1 Detroit 40 883,040 22,076 100.0 41 764,126 18,637 103.4 81 1,647,166 20,335 101.5 2 Chicago 41 868,720 21,188 92.6 41 713,593 17,404 96.7 82 1,582,313 19,296 94.4 3 Dallas 41 824,993 20,121 104.8 41 721,264 17,591 98.7 82 1,546,257 18,856 101.8 4 Miami 41 818,149 19,954 101.8 41 778,532 18,988 104.6 82 1,596,681 19,471 103.1 5 Cleveland 41 792,391 19,326 94.3 41 770,731 18,798 103.8 82 1,563,122 19,062 98.8 6 New York 41 776,176 18,931 95.8 41 720,099 17,563 97.2 82 1,496,275 18,247 96.4 7 LA Lakers 41 774,189 18,882 99.1 41 771,313 18,812 102.7 82 1,545,502 18,847 100.9 8 San Antonio 41 770,677 18,797 101.6 40 733,262 18,331 102.5 81 1,503,939 18,567 102.0 9 Utah 41 751,621 18,332 89.9 41 698,968 17,048 95.9 82 1,450,589 17,690 92.7 10 Golden State 40 730,928 18,273 95.2 41 687,783 16,775 91.8 81 1,418,711 17,514 93.5 11 NO/Oklahoma City 41 744,920 18,168 1443.6 41 683,051 16,659 88.8 82 1,427,971 17,414 174.1 12 Phoenix 41 730,179 17,809 93.6 41 725,482 17,694 99.1 82 1,455,661 17,751 96.3 13 LA Clippers 41 712,409 17,375 91.2 41 694,715 16,944 93.0 82 1,407,124 17,160 92.1 14 Sacramento 41 709,997 17,317 100.0 41 701,173 17,101 95.7 82 1,411,170 17,209 97.8 15 Denver 41 702,555 17,135 89.7 41 723,323 17,642 96.6 82 1,425,878 17,388 93.1 16 Washington 40 684,889 17,122 85.6 41 708,959 17,291 95.3 81 1,393,848 17,208 90.3 17 Toronto 41 699,242 17,054 86.1 41 680,432 16,595 91.6 82 1,379,674 16,825 88.7 18 Boston 41 692,513 16,890 86.2 41 734,695 17,919 96.0 82 1,427,208 17,404 91.0 19 New Jersey 41 691,543 16,866 84.1 41 726,150 17,710 97.2 82 1,417,693 17,288 90.3 20 Milwaukee 41 681,337 16,617 88.8 41 701,903 17,119 91.7 82 1,383,240 16,868 90.2 21 Philadelphia 41 677,248 16,518 78.7 41 763,709 18,627 103.3 82 1,440,957 17,572 90.1 22 Charlotte 41 671,011 16,366 00.0 41 701,798 17,117 89.7 82 1,372,809 16,741 175.4 23 Seattle 41 664,157 16,198 95.3 41 704,998 17,195 96.0 82 1,369,155 16,697 95.6 24 Indiana 41 663,368 16,179 87.5 41 722,599 17,624 96.6 82 1,385,967 16,902 92.0 25 Minnesota 41 648,167 15,808 85.6 40 692,205 17,305 94.7 81 1,340,372 16,547 90.1 26 Memphis 41 647,533 15,793 85.8 41 705,671 17,211 96.6 82 1,353,204 16,502 91.1 27 Orlando 41 638,005 15,561 90.2 41 700,453 17,084 93.8 82 1,338,458 16,322 92.1 28 Houston 41 636,110 15,514 84.8 40 701,483 17,537 98.6 81 1,337,593 16,513 91.5 29 Atlanta 41 617,817 15,068 75.3 41 685,671 16,723 92.6 82 1,303,488 15,896 83.5 30 Portland 41 617,199 15,053 73.1 41 702,942 17,144 96.5 82 1,320,141 16,099 84.0 I think a business man would love to go from the having the least amount of fans in the stadium to top five, unlike the rockets, with the incredibly lucrative yao ming, have actually regressed.
can someone post a yao lebron poll, this is driving me nuts? Whenever i talk to any of my friends (who are not rockets fans) they can't believe anyone would seriously take yao first, even from a business standpoint, or the big man thing - they're more inclined to take dho, and can someone show more conclusively than i, who is worht more $ to their franchise, yao or lebron???
I think some of us are overrating Wade's 20 feet and in game. It is very good, but claiming it is unparrallel and that it is the closest thing to Jordan is slightly premature. Also, the Heat had a very good team. If you claim that Mourning, Haslem, Jason Williams, and Walker are all merely "has beens," that is severely overstating Wade's contribution. It also doesn't help that Dirk decided to disappear in the Finals. Don't get me wrong, I wanted the Heat to win, and I'm glad that they did, but just because they did, doesn't immediately catapult Wade to becoming the best of the best. It also doesn't help his case that the Ref. played like the 6th player on the court for Miami. Also with the style of Wade's play that relies so much on his Athleticism to get to the hoop, the longevity of his game is in question. With all that in mind, Wade as everybody's 2nd on the list is in my opinion unjustified.
On the contrary, I think the contribution of the other players in the Heat run is often over emphasized. If you look at total stats and +/-, Wade was so far out from the rest of his teammates. As a one man show leading his team to the title he was on the level of Duncan in 02 or Hakeem in 94. Look at this: in the finals Wade averaged 35PPG (plus 8 RPG and 4 APG). The list that have scored over 30PPG in a finals is slim, I can find Wade, Shaq, Jordan, Hakeem since the 70s (Possibly Bird or Kareem hit that mark). Other playoffs MVPs like Duncan, Isiah, Magic, Billips, Dumars, Moses, Worthy--never hit that mark (not saying Wade was better, some of those guys did more damage in other ways, but still it gives you an idea of Wade's performance). Again, this was a legendary performance by Wade. Also consider after Wade's 35PPG Walker was next highest in scoring at 13.8 followed by Shaq at 13.7, no one else is over 10. That is as close to a 1 man show (at least offensively) as you get in an NBA champion. Now lets look at Dallas, Dirk 23PPG, JT 22PPG, JH 15PPG and JS 12PPG. Dirk had loads more help, a much better group of players around him, and still lost to Wade. Basically the Heat's whole offense was off of Wade in the finals (and most of the playoffs). Now I give substantial credit to Shaq, Zo, Walker, JP, Haslem, JW and GP for 2 things. 1) they played hard, particularly defensively; and 2) mostly recognizing they needed to get out of Wade's way and doing OK with open shots Wade created. Despite they play different positions, this is very analogous to Hakeem and the 94 Rocket champs. In the end with Wade playing out of this world, just as Hakeem did in 94, they were just barely able to win the championship. It is a lot closer to Wade (and Hakeem) dragging their teammates over the finishing line than them playing a great supporting role. Now I will say Shaq did have an offensive impact in the Detroit series, but even then it was more of a solid 2nd fiddle roll. But in the finals Shaq was more in the way of Wade and the offense than helpfull, the +/- stats show this clearly. Finally about this supporting cast. A younger Shaq with a Kobe in his prime and other players got creamed by Detroit. Kobe could not raise his half court game anywhere near Wade has done versus Detroit in the playoffs the last 2 years. Is Wade as good as Jordan, no. Not now, and almost certainly will never be. Could Wade end up being the best guard from say 85 on after you get past Jordan and Magic, he possible could be. No other guard has carried a team to a title like Wade did since Jordan. And before then you have to go to Magic Johnson (Isiah and Dumars and Billips got MVPS, but they had stat lines and overall impacts no where near Wade's and had much superior casts). Wade's playoff performance was legendary stuff, it just was. Maybe the most unstoppable player for 2 postseasons if not for the injury in the Detroit series. Further, it isn't like a 27-7-6 on 50% shooting regular season on a half court team is shoddy either. He was one of the 5 best players in the regular season, and was hands down the best player in the postseason (really 2 post seasons in a row). He and Duncan have been one of the few guys that have a strong track record for raising his game in the playoffs over the last few of years. One has to really downplay Wade's playoff performances to not to recognize him as one of the top 3 building blocks in the league, IMO clearly between him and Lebron. Since most teams place a high priority on playoff success, and think this has to be heavily considered. Yes, his longevity is in question, but he is also only 24. Kobe, has highly dependent on his athleticism, is 28 (and who can't seem to bring out the best in teammates), and did less with a better cast than Wade had 2 years ago (in the Lakers loss to Detroit, and the year before to the Spurs). Dirk is also 28, and not as unstoppable as Wade once the defenses and pressure notches up (evidenced in finals). He can't defend like Wade either. While his career may span over Wade's because of his type of game, in his peak he will never have the impact Wade does. Lebron--though not quite the half court monster Wade is yet, I'd probably take over Wade because he is younger and bigger (probably last longer in the league), that is it. But I don't think if you switched Lebron in Wade's spot last year the Heat win the title. I don't think Lebron is as efficient in the half court, I don't think he could have put up 35 on 50% shooting versus the very athletic and long Mavs. Just look at Detroit, Wade got 27PPG on out of this world 61% shooting an 1.7 PPS in breaking the Piston's defensive will like no one esle had been able to do for 3 years, Lebron got his 27PPG on 44% shooting and 1.19PPS (which isn't bad actually). The Heat needed Wade to play out of this world in scoring and creating (efficiently) to have a shot versus Dallas, and he did. I still have trouble understaning how folks don't fully grasp what Wade did. If you don't remember the games well just look at it in historical context. (And hey, it wasn't/isn't like Jordan and Lebron and Dirk don't/didn't get every call too). Maybe as Rockets fans or if were we Laker fans or Cavs fans we simply think it could have been Tmac, Kobe or Lebron instead of Wade--but only one of these guys have raised it another level consistently as the man in the playoffs and carried his team far. In truth I think only Wade could have carried that Heat team all the way to the top. At least last year. But give Lebron a year or two, that could change.
I cant believe u put Duncan above Tmac!! I dont like this list at all My top 3 in one team: 1) Tmac 2) Yao 3) Dwight Howard (keep in mind that its about how well they would fit in and putting these three unselfish players in one team would work out great!!
Why take Yao over Lebron? Number of elite wing players in the NBA?...Kobe, Tmac, Iverson, Lebron, Wade, Arenas, Carter, etc. Number of elite big men? Yao and Shaq. Soon to be...just Yao. In all honesty? You can replace T-mac with any of these players, any of them. And we're still contenders with Yao in the middle. You can replace Yao with any big man in the league, and we're a 40 win ballclub. Shaq makes Wade look better than he is. I'm not saying he isn't awesome, or even top 5, but with Shaq in the middle it really amplifies your skills. Trade him out with Lebron and they'd still have won. Put Kobe there and they still would have won. Put a healthy T-Mac there and they would have won. You can go on and on. I want to see exactly how far the Cavs would go with Wade at the helm of a bunch of scrubs. Teams win with elite big men, not exceptionally skilled wing players. (Jordan and that Pistons team being exceptions). Hakeem's Rockets, Shaq's Lakers, Duncan's Spurs, and the Shaq era Miami Heat. Wing players get way too much credit these days. Somewhere Wilt is turning in his grave.
It's all so clear to me now. I'll take Yao with Wade's treatment from the refs @ #1. It'd seriously be the second-coming of Wilt.
Very good points Desert Scar, and I agree with most of what you said. I guess I'm still not comfortable in putting Wade in that category you mentioned. But I do want to mention a couple of things though. First, I don't think Detroit played anywhere near the level they played in the year of their Championship for the past two years. Second, I don't think the Mavs had the championship mentallity either. Unfortunately, these two things do not substantiate to any basis for discrediting Wade's accomplishments. I hope Yao can produce results that can change a few minds this year.
let me say this any "complaint" about wade getting too many foul calls is VERY unjustified. most franchise players get every call (im sure we in houston have experienced that against, say, dirk nowitzki?) and refs usually start blowing their whistles more when a player takes over in such a dominating way that they worked hard for the foul. Also, take into consideration all the damage wade did AT the freethrow line...shaq gets every call too, but cant do that, even lebron doesnt have the kind of cluth free throw shooting wade had...
he won't be "dream" like either - he's just a very good center, probably hof bound, but not necesarilty elite like wilt or dream. or even shaq like.
No Shaq carried Kobe to titles. When Shaq started slipping (really starting post 02) Kobe in his prime could not keep LA winning titles. Wade in his 3rd year takes a shell of a Shaq (his least effective NBA season ever), one who scores less than 14PPG in the finals and has a negative +/- for the finals, and carried Shaq and the rest of his teammates to the title. So no, we already know plugging in Kobe for Wade wouldn't have worked. The minute Shaq started going downhill the Lakers got vulnearable (Sac series in 02) and started getting beat in the playoffs (03 to the Spurs, 04 to the Pistons). I really doubt plugging in Lebron or Tmac in for Wade would have worked either. Maybe they could (I personally doubt it--I think Wade is the more relentless and efficient half court player), but we already have proof from Wade that he can carry his guys all the way. BTW I am not sure Wade makes Cleveland better than Lebron. But that is not the issue. When you pair a wing player to a center (Shaq/Yao) and are planning for playoff success you want the better half court player, right now that is Wade. If I get 2 guys to build a team I'll take Yao and Wade or Yao and Lebron--either is fine by me. But if I got just 1, I take Lebron or Wade over Yao. This doesn't mean Yao isn't great, those other guys are just phenomenal and young.
I find all these Wade and Lebron worshipping posts funny indeed. Bottom line, there is not one GM in the league that would take them over Kobe and Yao, in fact there are probably several that would still take Duncan at his age over them. People seem to forget that LeBron is not a capable defender and that he lacks killer instinct as well the ability to choose an identity. Wade is simply not on Kobe's level period. In all truth LeBron is T-Mac light and Wade is Kobe light. The top 4 players when healthy and removing age would definitely be T-Mac, Yao, Kobe, Duncan. After that you could debate Wade, LeBron, Dirk, but even then if you swapped there teamates with KG's teamates and vice versa even KG probably has 2-3 more years being the more valuable guy. Hell I think I would draft Amare over Wade, Dirk, or LeBron even with questions on his knees. LeBron is tremendous don't get me wrong, but he's overrated because everyone forgets about his defense and the fact that he can't decide to dominate wither with scoring or with passing. Now in 5 years time ask this question again and it's probably much closer between yao and Lebron, but right now I really laugh at people saying it is ridiculous to take Yao over leBron. Yao is on the verge of being the most dominant force in a LONG time, Lebron is on the verge of being a less talented T-Mac.
I really can't believe how everyone is overating yao as the most -dominant force in a long time - like duncan domination- like shaq domination - kg style? I mean, do you think yao is as good as hakeem? no way he ever reaches that level! rockets dynasty - you need to be more realistic - every gm would take lebron over yao, i don't know about wade, but you also need to get off of kobe's nuts, the next generation is dominizzling.
