My Grandfather still has German steel in his body from a German mortar that he got while in France. If you told him that we didn't save their asses, he'd probably punch you in the mouth. My other Grandfather would punch you in the mouth, but he's buried in France and can't be here right now to do it.
Hayes, Bravo. I pointed out to MacBeth that it was US Air Power that ultimately turned the tide against Germany. We bombed all their factories and supply lines and they could not keep up. He simply ignored my post. US Air Power turned the tide...it was our B17s, B24s, B25s, etc..etc that broke the Hitler war machine. The US and it's sheer industrial muscle destroyed Germany and Japan. People hardly give enough credit to the USA in WW2, we fought a massive 2 front war, and won both sides. Yes, our allies had a hand in it, but both Russia and Britain would have fallen if not for our supporting them with weapons like aircraft and tanks. DD
My father fought in France, and not only was the rest of his squad either killed or injured, but he lost his best friend. He would agree with your grandfathers, and would add that not only did the Americans free France, but the French soldiers didn't help much. Here's an excerpt on how his Division 'didn't' help free France: .... The Division crossed the English Channel from Southampton to Le Havre, France, in mid November and on 28 November was assigned to Lt. General Alexander M. Patch's Seventh Army in Alsace.13 From the time that the Division first moved into battle in the France's Maginot Line against the Germans on 5 December 194414 until the war's end, elements of the Division were in combat almost continuously. Much of the going was tough. Besides piercing the Maginot and Germany's Siegfried Lines in December, in January the inexperienced Hellcats also paid a terrific price, never to be forgotten, for combat seasoning in Bloody Herrlisheim, a little town north of Strasbourg, France.15,16,17 At Herrlisheim the 12th waged its only actual defensive battle of the war when on 5-19 January 1945 it unexpectedly faced elements of several German divisions including the 10th SS Panzer Division, the 17th SS Panzer Grenadiers, and the 553rd Volksgrenadier Division acting under SS chief Heinrich Himmler with direct orders from Adolph Hitler.18,19 Hitler called this offensive Operation Nordwind . Author Danny S. Parker referred to the battle as the "war's last eruption". Although suffering many casualties and many taken prisoner by the overwhelming German force,20 the Hellcats thwarted repeated German attempts to break out of their Rhine River bridgehead at Gambesheim, France,21 and strike south toward the political prize of Strasbourg. It was in this fight that the Germans dubbed the 12th the Suicide Division.22 The Germans eventually withdrew still puzzled by American tenacity. Later, the Hellcats learned from Nazi prisoners of war that the 12th had become one of the two most feared divisions on the Western Front. (The other was the U.S. 4th Armored Division.)
I think most people do give credit to the US for the huge role it played. Macbeth is living in some sort of alternetiave universe (academia). Unfortunately Europe has either forgotten about it or just doesn't care.
One more thing to consider.... If the USA does not supply Russia with Bullets, planes and steel, how would they have been able to stop Hitler? Answer: They wouldn't. The Russians relied on us to stay afloat until they could catch their military up in WW2. The USA basically held up the allies with its industrial might, while our planes hammered the German supply lines and factories. THIS IS WHAT turned the tide in the war..... Anyone refute that? DD
So if the French hadn't helped us during the American Revolution, then we wouldn't exist, and there would have been no U.S. to stop Hitler. So lets stop making fun of the French, because obviously through your logic, they are the ones responsible for European freedom.
Pgabrial, The French did help out, however, when they showed up the British were essentially defeated. But, they certainly helped out with their blockade late in the war. Not exactly the same thing, but you have a valid point. DD
Darned edit off...... You have a valid point except about the freeing of Europe....an entirely different war dude.. You are on the rack...stretching again, my argumentative buddy. DD
i dunno about US air power turning the tide (i think it was economics/war material production instead), but i offer some evidence in support of your theory. Below excerpted from: http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/SovWarProd.html Despite the lack of definitive statistics for either nation it is possible to compare artillery production between Germany and the USSR. A few interesting facts emerge as Germany out-produced the USSR in 1944 in total production and out-produced it in AA guns every year. Two-thirds of German production between 1942 and 1944 was of AA guns while the Soviet figure was only one-sixth. If the Combined Bomber Offensive had no other effect, it diverted much in the way of German armaments production to counter it, constituting, in effect, an economic Second Front.
I'm not trying to refute that, but the image of a young Russian solider flying an American war plane or using Ak 47s to fire M-16 bullets, chewing gums and all while reading a Playboy magazine brings a smile to my face. It's also admitted by the American historians that the involvement of France and Spain was crucial in American independence process. It goes both ways.
RE: Air Power winning WW2 the Allies use of bombing was a mostly waste of brave young men and material. Due to the relative primitive technology of the time, the only targets that were hit with reliability were oil production areas and oil refineries - since these required large sprawling complexes. The US government sponsored a study of the effectiveness of the American and British bombing of Germany and deduced the air campaign cost us more than it cost Germany in production. Production actually went up in some areas during the most intensive years of bombing, until we actually had troops closing in on Germany. I can't find a copy of the report online, but this is what I remember JKG saying in his interview in "The Good War" by Studs Terkel.
