Where Does the Conservative Anti-Government Mantra Come From?

you just don't get it. Most homes, and by most, I mean nearly all, are bought with a mortgage - debt. Most companies and cities issue bonds to finance projects, investments, m & a, etc....again, this is debt.

Small business take out loans - debt. Students borrow money to go to college - debt. Business are constantly using credit to borrow - from banks to raise capital - or from their suppliers - both are debt. New car loan? that's debt.

Debt isn't just credit card purchases. Without business, the gov't, and people willing to take on debt in mass numebrs, our economy will collapse further.

Credit is the lifeline of a mature capitalist system.

 

Perhaps I just don't accept it... I understand it. Debt is a natural part of an economy, yes. Buying a home on debt is perfectly understandable as you have an asset in the home. If a rich person wants to loan out their money on small businesses, thats great.

What is NOT acceptable is the bank lending out 90% of my $100,000 in savings to people who are a huge credit risk. Nor is it acceptable for the common person to continue to buy "bigger and better" with debt. You even accept that our great and vast economy is driven by debt. Before 1913, we did not have recessions and depressions. We both understand recessions and depressions are market corrections, but what you fail to face is that every dollar has to be accounted for. For every bubble, some crook like Greenspan makes a huge amount of money and some schmuck loses his money in the investment. Risk/reward investing has somehow been twisted into a russian roulette of market timing. The days of "invest in my gadget/venture and i will give you xxx% profit" have turned into "hurry and buy this house, turn it around and sell it...before the bubble busts". A debt ridden economy only furthers the gap between the rich and the poor.

But believe in what you want to believe. I guarantee we will see more of these deep recessions in our lifetime. And each and every time, feel free to find the fault.

 

Regulation was in place to prevent this, but was then dismantled by Clinton and Bush. Which is, of course, rather humorous given your previous comment:

Where's that "personal responsbility" speech now?

True. But once again you shoot yourself in the foot. Let me remind you what you said only sentences before...

The bank approved those bad loans. That's NOT acceptable, right? Who's at fault here, SG? The fool who asked for more than he could repay, or the idiot who gave it to him anyway?

All true. In American capitalism, the profit is privatized, and the risk put on the public. (credit - chomsky).

hrmmmm...

 

That's possible but at the sametime we don't know how many of those aborted might have become murderers, rapists and drug dealers. We can speculate on possibilities but that goes both ways.

 

so banks gave 90K loans to people with really bad credit. Is this caused by too much govt regulation OR not enough govt intervention/govt deregulation?

if you're hard working with good credit you don't have the right to get a chance to be richer?

 

Are you serious? We had some very big recessions and depressions prior to 1913. I presume you cite 1913 as the start of the Federal Reserve but remember the Federal Reserve was started to address instability in the American economy.

In regard to whether capitalism is fueled by debt I think it is fueled by credit more than it is debt.

 

Obama as a young fetus was a candidate for abortion -- particularly after his father abandoned his mother before Obama was born. I believe a child has the right to live and make his/her own choices without being executed before he/she can prove to be a boon or a bain. I think humanity is richer for the diversity of life that God gives us.

 

Yeah, this is spectacularly wrong.... and of the "depressions and recessions" that hit prior to 1913 (in quotes because they called them 'panics') most of the damage was caused by the same factors - collusion of bankers' interests with political interests in re-election.

 

And Charles Manson was a candidate for abortion too since he was born to an unwed 16 year old. In fact if we are going to argue speculatively the evidence is more likely that a child born in poverty who isn't wanted is more likley to become a criminal.

I think it is fine belief if you consider an embryo to be a life, I don't, but a speculative argument that we would be better if those potential people who were aborted actually came to be I don't think can be supported and if anything they would more likely be a burden to society than benefit.

As far as saying a diversity of life that God gives us is a great thing you would also have to consider that part of that diversity includes the Charles Manson's of the world. Would you say that it was God's plan that Charles Manson was born and lived to adulthood?

 

this might be the one you were looking for:

 

What we are arguing is moot. However, IMO I'd rather see the Mansons of the world born along with the gifted. You can weed out the Mansons despite the damage and pain they inflict. Those grievous acts generally are short-lived and affect relatively few people. However, gifted children can bring joy (music, art?) and benefits (scientific and medical breakthroughs?) that last for generations.

Again, these are all my opinions, but God gives us the child, but we as a society have a hand in creating the Mansons of the world. I wish I could tell you what is the greater force -- inherent behavioral nature or environment?

 

Who's to blame?

The government, for bad regulation practices, whether its over or under regulation?
The banks, who shouldn't have given the loans?
The individual, who should have not gotten the loan in the first place?

How can you blame the individual? Is it fair? We pat people on the back for a good job if they can keep a check book, when this should be a bare necessity for even having a bank account or even think about accruing any type of debt. Follow this with a poor public education. Next, we are fed continuous bad advise on business network channels. We watch "educational" entertainment like "flip this house" and think we can become wealthy over night. Perhaps we should invest in gold, thats the new thing, right? Sometimes I can't blame individuals for their actions, but they need to be held responsible. If you're an able body, you do not need a bail in the form of welfare or bankruptcy.

If banks want to make risky loans, hold them responsible. No bailouts. No Fannie and Freddie. Significantly increase the reserves. Make certain practices criminal.

We can argue about the government all day, but until we get rid of the lobbiest, we will continue to have poor regulation. The politicans do not look out for our best needs. We both agree that the democrats and republicans are both wolves in different skins.

 

My apologies, glynch. That was not my intent. I was merely responding to rocketsjudoka. BTW, am I not supporting health care reform? Am I not one of those working, middle class folks just because I own a business? Are you not a self-employed business owner?

 

Give me some examples of volatile recessions and depression, outside of wars that were not fought in our country.

Credit means nothing until you take it in the form of debt. If nobody uses credit, then the economy will not move.

I understand our life styles would be vastly different if we used debt very sparsely. We wouldn't enjoy the high standards of living we have now. But we can not continue this tirade and expect it to keep up.

 

Excellent.

 

What about a Bernie Madoff who rips off a lot of people, what about a crack dealer who gets many hooked? I agree its moot because its speculation that we can't know. I'm pointing that out that it is flawed because we have no way of knowing what sort of people that aborted embryos and fetus might be. We don't know so positing that this is terrible that we have abortions. Its just as likely the next Stalin is being aborted as the next Salk.

YOu have previously stated though that it was a choice for the people to have sex leading to the pregnancy. Wouldn't then that be people who gave us the child just as much as you can say it is people who bring up the child?

If God is omnipotent enough to give us a child then wouldn't God also be ominipotent enough to determine what sort of adult that child becomes? I have a hard time buying the line of thinking that God has a plan but we humans screw it up.

Sorry for the derail.