Where Does Nash Rank Among The Greatest PGs Of All Time?

Ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out"? It applies to your analysis.

You're cherry picking irrelevant data in an attempt to understate Nash's abilities. There's no other reason you'd include games where he was coming off the bench and averaging 4 minutes/game.

 

OK, we'll go back to the original post:

1. Use of 6 years of excellent shooting statistics to justify #3 point guard.
Opinion: why should shooting statistics count toward a "point guard" ranking? Do not agree.

2. Use of double-figure assists.
Opinion: agree, but at the same time, you're only talking about 6 years.

3. Winning 2 MVPs
Opinion: absolutely should be a factor. Very elite category. Deservedly puts him in the top 10 and close, perhaps, to the top 5.

4. Turned around the Mavs franchise.
Opinion: completely disagree- Dirk and Finley were equally important.

5. Turned around the Suns franchise.
Opinion: completely agree.

6. Sure-fire HOF
Opinion: completely agree.

Other criteria:

Championship credentials & playoff success-
Opinion: mixed. Good playoff runs, but zero NBA Finals appearances and zero rings should be at least considered as part of the equation.

Overall statistics:
Opinion: definitely should be included.

Defense vs. scoring:
Opinion: believe defense should carry some weight, as well as scoring, with both perhaps taking a slight backseat to assists.


So, is he top 3? If so, a ranking could arguably be:

1. Magic Johnson
2. John Stockton
3. Steve Nash
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Isiah Thomas

or

5. Jason Kidd
5. Gary Payton
5. Kevin Johnson
5. Walt Frazier
5. Tiny Archibald

Wow, I have a hard time putting Nash above the Big O, as well as Isiah. And I have reasons for ranking Payton, Kidd, and Frazier ahead of Nash.


But this isn't really fair to Nash or Kidd. I think it'd be more fair to consider this ranking when Kidd and Nash have hung it up for good. Then, Nash very well may be a clear #3 or #4 or #5. But not now. IMVHO.

 

I completely disagree on just about everything above. You also even pointed it out yourself.

Thomas did not play with talents, such as Nowitzki and Finley or Amar'e, Joe Johnson, Marion, or Barbosa, early in his career. Also, Amar'e only played about 55 games in previous season, before Nash.

Pistons acutally improved 18 games under Zeke in his first year.

Also, Isiah's numbers never were much more consistent over the long haul of his career. Nash never even had 20-10 season, yet Isiah did 3 seasons in row and even had one where he had over 13 assist per game for the entire season. Also career wise, there are several point guards who averaged more points and assists with better shooting percentage. There's no way that he can be better than those other point guards, when he has inferior numbers and zero championships (never been to the NBA Finals). How is that even possible.

You completely undermined the fierce competitor argument about Isiah. Unlike a certain two time MVP, Isiah did play defense and almost shocked the world by beating the eventual 2x Champion Lakers. If you saw how well he played in the Finals against the Lakers, you would not say that. He scored 42 points in Game 6 on a severely sprained ankle and other physical conditions. Doing later what only three other teams did (Rockets, 76ers, and Celtics) was beating the Showtime Lakers.

http://www.answers.com/topic/isiah-thomas

He was not only defined by his numbers, but vocal and emotional engine for the Pistons. I can firmly say that Payton, KJ, and Nash. In most of their playoff runs rarely beat too many superior teams, like Bulls, Rockets, or etc. The main was the main guy on three Piston teams that went to NBA Finals and won twice.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/thomas_bio.html

Also, it is silly for the other posters to undermine the importance of defense from a point guard. If an opposing point guard is scoring baskets, left and right and getting a high assist total.

Nash would be a weak link (on a rough, defensive team), like the Pistons became that weren't going to run and gun with teams, opt to slow the game, and make teams work through their half court offense. He obviously had a problem slowing down the game and playing more intense defense, what kind of top notch player does that. I cannot see why people will not also mention how he has been outplayed by Tony Parker in the playoffs.

 

how can someone be the top 5 best point guard of all time and never made it AT LEAST to the nba finals?

 

A 9 win increase is a pedestrian "turnaround". Are you seriously comparing it to a 33 win increase?

And it's not only the turnaround season. You should also factor in the subsequent season where the Suns lost their leading scorer and Nash still led the team to 54 wins.

Out of curiosity, do you think MVP's are a strong statistic?

 

Hmmm, let's see, other poster says that Thomas' team success was largely due to the Pistons getting players like Rodman, Salley, etc. So, poster figures, hey, let's see how players did individually, during the regular season and in the playoffs. So, look up statistics and discover, hey, Isiah Thomas statistically has better numbers in assists, steals, and points than Nash, both in the regular season and playoffs. So, in an attempt to prove my point that Thomas was better than Nash, I use individual statistics rather than team statistics. Tell me, is that incorrect?

Or, maybe, I should just put the argument this way: you know, Isiah Thomas was a better point guard than Nash because of his excellent crossover move. Plus, his uniform looked better than Nash's, I liked the Pistons better than the Suns, Isiah was shorter and had more of a disadvantage to work with than Nash, and his hair was much, much better.

Because, it's really not important that Thomas has better overall statistics than Nash, it's not important that Thomas has better playoff numbers than Nash, it's not important that Thomas led the Pistons to 2 championships while Nash has led his team to zero, while not even reaching the NBA Finals, it's not important that Thomas is ranked #6 all-time in assists- arguably the key statistic for a point guard- and that he has a better career assist average than Nash, and it's not important that he was, by all accounts, one of the most clutch players in basketball history (the inbounds pass to Bird notwithstanding).

No, what's important is that Nash has better shooting percentages than Isiah, won 2 MVPs, and led the Suns to one of the biggest regular-season turnarounds in NBA history. You keep your criteria, and I'll keep my overall career stats and playoff performance. No problem.

 

For the point you're trying to convey, yes, its incorrect. If you feel that you need to include irrelevant data to prove your point, then your point is wrong.

And for what its worth, shooting percentanges are much more important than ppg.

You might as well. It wouldn't significantly lower the quality of your analysis.

I haven't done the math, but when you come to this conclusion, are you including his first stint with Phoenix? You shouldn't be.

This is important. This is also the only thing (Isiah's playoff success) that prevents a Thomas/Nash comparison from being ridiculous.

Ok. And Nash should surpass him by the end of next season.

You really need to take into account the years that Nash wasn't the first option. That plays a role when you talk about apg and ppg.

Ok. Thomas had a better career. Nash was a better player.

 

Why is Nash a better player?

 

You have to be careful- you're using a logical argument here- you're sure to be shot down by these individuals who, I'm absolutely positive, have rarely seen Isiah play (in spite of what they've said) and have a completely myopic 2000-and-beyond view of the NBA. I really wasn't planning to defend Isiah Thomas adamantly, but after seeing these fools actually say that Nash is much, much better than Isiah and that Isiah was overrated- well, that's just ridiculous. Really, how ridiculous is it to say that, because he's had better team success and better individual success than Nash, that he's actually WORSE????? What the hell else is there? Geez, what a waste of 1/2 my day, arguing something that shouldn't be debatable.

 

When one of the poster compared Isiah's competitive nature to Von Wafer's I was in total disbelief?

One of the league's most unselfish teammates and greatest winners ever compared to player who cannot even stay on one team.

 

I have Nash as a borderline top 5 player. Obviously Magic is ahead of him, and the only reason that you can't slot him in second is his lack of strong defense.

If you want to talk system PGs, look at Stockton! He doesn't get his numbers without generous Jazz stat-keeping, BS ref calls, illegal picks, and Malone. Then he retires, and the next Jazz PG picks up right where he left off - weird, eh? You can't separate Stockton from the Jazz, so you can't properly evaluate him - all you can do is laugh because the dirty player never got a ring, even after bear-hugging Barkley.

The case for Nash: incredible offensive game - not only individually, but he made he teammates look way better than they are. Who was that guy that he made look like an all-star when Amare was out? Do we even remember his name anymore?

If you put him on the Rockets, I would make the case that last year we beat the Lakers and this year we would have made the playoffs (and we'd all be talking about the incredible deal that Trevor Ariza was and Rookie of the Year, Chase Budinger).

So to sum up, he's a top-2 shooter/scorer at the PG position all-time, and a top-2 playmaker all-time at his position. I think top-5 is well-warranted.

 

This is the classic example of the "Flavor-of-the-Month" argument. Nash is someone they've watched all the time for the past 6-7 years, they've witnessed the "turnaround" which is supposed to represent apparently one of the greatest achievements in sports, with almost zero credit given to the team, they've seen the MVPs and the popular style of play, and they've anointed Nash the best ever- well, they can't put him above Magic and Stockton- they know they'd be called out obviously for that- so they start this silly "Isiah-Is-Overrated" argument and say absolutely ludicrous things like "if it weren't for Isiah's playoff success, it would be a ridiculous comparison in favor of Nash." Completely myopic view based on the "now" as opposed to the truth. And the "late bloomer" argument is laughable, too, as if it wasn't Nash's own fault that he didn't produce earlier in his career.

So, somehow it wasn't Nash's fault that he had very unproductive seasons early in his career. That we shouldn't hold that against him. Isiah was a winner straight out of college and continued right through the pros. I almost feel bad having to practically "put down" Nash to justify my opinion, but I have no choice when I'm confronted with such obviously bizarre opinions from the Nash worshippers.

 

nash is all flash and no substance. good player but not top 5.

yeah he puts up points efficiently but he gets TORCHED on a consistent basis by other good point guards then factor he just cant play in a championship style system.

all he knows is run and gun and is incapable of playing championship winning basketball (in fact he cried when they tried to change thier style)

yeah he'll get you wins but he wont even get you to the finals.

at LEAST donovan mcnabb GOT to the super bowl.

 

So.
Let's THROW OUT CHAMPIONSHIPS AND FINALS
[which is good for NASH] [Heck DWADE and AI took their teams . .their IMO LESS TALENTED teams to the finals/championships]
Throw out personal Acolades
[which is bad for Nash]

I look at most of the names on these Top 10 lists:
1. Magic Johnson
2. John Stockton
3. Steve Nash
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Isiah Thomas
6. Jason Kidd
7. Gary Payton
8. Kevin Johnson
9. Walt Frazier
10. Tiny Archibald

QUESTION: One on One - who can Nash beat?
I don't think he beats any of them.

So. We move one.
Playmaker - He is probably Top 5
Defense - dead last
Heart - ?? all of them have alot of heart

Stats . . stats can lie. . .rule changes, difference eras, etc

I don't dislike Nash. but I don't put him in the top 3 either. He cannot get past the BIG O or Isiah for me.

Rocket River

 

It's good to see so many people citing Walt Frazier, my all-time favorite NBA player. Clyde made D cool, but the coolest thing I ever saw him do: Phil Chenier sucker-punched Clyde as they were running the court, decked him. Ref didn't see it. Clyde got up, shook the cobwebs loose, dusted himself off, didn't say a word-- just poured in 44 straight points in Chenier's face, and locked Chenier down. Clyde was one cool cat.

I enjoy Nash's game, and will root for the Suns in the playoffs. They are a bunch of relatively old men doing a pretty good job of run-and-gun.

 

here's a humorous discussion:

Nash vs Stockton

 

at worst (record wise) it would be a lateral move. the Jazz would be flying in for alley oops AK-47, Boozer, etc. and the Suns would be a little more post play. but i bet the Nash Jazz would end with a better record than Stockton Suns.

 

worst back to back MVP, Larry Bird and Michael Jordan are now rolling in their graves, and they are not yet dead

 

Nash shot a lot more 3s than Stockton. And Nash's 3pt% is a whopping .432.

If you look at the advanced stats, Nash has a .566 eFG% vs. Stockton's .546.

They are both great shooters. Nash is a notch better. Stockton has a better overall fg% probably because he was a little bit more selective with his shots.

Of course, Stockton is a better all around PG hands down. But in terms of shooting, very few players in NBA history are at Nash's level.

 

Run n gun is all fun, but you wont be the last one standing when its all said and done.