Defensive ratings of the Orlando Magic for the past few years: 2008-2009 Def Rtg: 101.9 (1st of 30) 2009-2010 Def Rtg: 103.3 (3rd of 30) 2010-2011 Def Rtg: 101.8 (3rd of 30) It appears that losing Barnes/Pietrus didn't hurt the Magic's defense as much as you're implying...
You are right, but 7.5 would increase to at least 9 or 10 apg career wise. Though, he is 17th all time and if the rules for assist were the same as they are today, he would jump over alot of players. Mark Jackson (8.0 apg), Steve Nash (8.0 apg), Tim Hardaway (8.2), Norm Nixon (8.3), and Deron Williams (8.7). Everyone else is over 9, the top 7 (Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Chris Paul, Zeke, Jason Kidd, and KJ). I'm still surprised at why some people have Isiah Thomas so low. Outside of Magic and Cousy, I haven't seen any point guards win as much or be a factor in winning a championship series as much Isiah. I'm also giving Cousy probably too much credit for winning the titles. But, he was their best player, easily before Bill Russell arrived. Even before Russell and few other hall of famers arrived, the Celtics were still a pretty good team team. He lead the earlier Celtics teams in scoring before Sharman and Russell arrived, he also seems to have been a good clutch shooter. Oscar would be the all time leader though. pradaxpimp - Ronny had very good list. I would even would consider putting Gary Payton over Kidd. Payton had the one thing Kidd was never great at ... being a good scorer. Kidd is a great defender, but Payton is seriously one of the greatest ever. This dude pretty much is the best job I've seen anyone do against MJ in the Finals, and he could seriously put some hand-cuffs on you. The Supersonics from 90s were great, because Payton was their engine. Seattle did not get really bad, until he left. They survived losing Shawn Kemp and George Karl. Vin Baker was a good player, but he wasn't Shawn Kemp. I'm still want to say to the Nash has two MVPs crowd, and that makes him better than these other players. That argument makes no sense, and is straw man presentation at best. 1) For one, those players weren't in the same league in their prime 2) The reason the other point guards do not have MVPs littered on their walls is being in the same league with Michael Jordan; Magic Johnson; Hakeem Olajuwon; Shaquille O'Neal; Charles Barkley; and David Robinson, all in their primes. That's going to severely handicap your MVP chances. There's no way he would win an award with his numbers and impact over any of those players in their prime, either. THat's what kind of league Stockton; KJ; Gary Payton; and even Jason Kidd played in. I know KJ specifically had years he was averaging over 21 points a game and 10+ assist, while the Suns had very good record. The other point guards from 90s and 80s were great point guards, but they aren't bringing more to the table than Magic did (Stockton; Payton; KJ; Lever (good 80s pg), and others). Nash is not in that stratosphere based on his actual gameplay, either. The only other point guard (in this Modern NBA) that I saw who could really take over an important game or win big, was Isiah. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1990.html - Not even on the MVP ballot (Tom Chambers was, though) - 54 wins http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1991.html#mvp http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1992.html#mvp Nash has more NBA MVPs than Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Dr. J (4 total), Kobe, Gervin, Shaquille O'Neal, David Robinson, Rick Barry, and etc. He's not better than those players to actual impact in the game and on the court. 04-05, he probably deserved it, but Shaq would've been a good choice too. 05-06, I'm scratching my head a little bit, LeBron was a beast that year and Kobe was probably at his top form (35+ ppg is very rare) and his team did make the playoffs nearly winning a series. Dirk was pretty good as well. I'm not sure he was the best player that year without question. I feel the same way about Karl Malone, he did not deserve over MJ in 97 or TD in 99. Honorable Mentions (I have to give a few out, players who haven't been mentioned at all, probably not top 10 worthy, but were good point gards): Mark Price, Mookie Blaylock, Norm Nixon, Nick Van Exel, Guy Rodgers, Scott Skiles, Michael Ray Richardson, Baron Davis and Norm Van Lier.
And I want to say to you that this thread is about Kidd's ranking. I brought up the MVP's in the discussion of Kidd vs Nash. And since they played in the same era, it's actually a strong argument.
1.Magic 2.Oscar 3.Isiah 4.Stockton 5.Maravich (shocked how no one has really mentioned him in their top 5 yet I've always viewed him as a scoring pg like Isiah) 6. Cousy 7. Kidd 8.Nash 9. Kevin Johnson (imo vastly underrated but injuries killed later part of his career) 10. mark jackson kind of crazy though Phoenix has had Nash, Kidd, KJ and Dennis Johnson all play probably what could be considered their best years for them. Not too mention they also had Marbury!!! (j/k) Penny would have probably been on that list too if not for his injuries. Guys who will be on there by the time their careers are done: Paul and Deron Williams. IMO Derrick Rose is similar to KJ but a better scorer but lesser passer. If he keeps it up he'll probably start climbing the charts as well. Same with Westbrook.
4-5 years ago he probably wouldn't be in the conversation for top 10 but he's somehow continued to be very productive even at his age and developed a shot this late into his career, have to give him A LOT of credit for continually working on his game and maintaining his level of play. You could easily make the case for him being top 10 now which is a huge compliment to him, unfortunately he's never been a complete player so you can't really put him in the top 5. Nash (imo) is really, really overrated. If you don't even attempt to play defense you'll obviously have a ton of energy to focus on nothing but scoring/making plays. I'm a huge Payton fan and at his prime he was one of the best players of all time let alone PGs, but his prime didn't last that long so its hard to make the argument for him unfortunately. Anyway, lots of credit to Kidd.. not many players play as long as he has and still give something positive to the team.
Which ones, Thomas is 5th all time in assist (9.2), 0.2 behind Oscar; 0.6 behind Chris Paul, 1.2 behind Stockton, and 2.7 behind Magic. He averaged a mere 0.7 points less than Magic, 6 more points than Stockton, and about 7 less than Oscar (understandable). Granted, he didn't average as many rebounds as Oscar or Magic, or even equal Stockton's shooting percentages. Where is he not stacking up at? Maybe defense, but I cannot say with a straight face that Isiah is the worse defender in this group. For Thomas, the reason for him being a scorer, an aggressive scorer, is one of a few reasons why Detroit has 2 titles, Dumars; Aguire; Laimbeer; Vinnie Johnson and Rodman were good players. But, none of them were good enough to be go to players. That's why Isiah was perfect Detroit and he was probably one of the greatest clutch performers ever, it was weird he was even dominating the ball less than he did in his youth and was still a good scorer. Nash or Kidd couldn't not score, like that. Payton may not have been made to make shots under pressure. Isiah did that for most of his career. He TOOK OVER games offensively,that's what wins titles, great offensive go-to players. He did it without a dominant big man or a truly other worldly offensive player (Dumars, Aguire, VJ, and Adrian Dantley, he got traded before they won a title and he was past his prime). I'm sorry, Payton; Kidd; Nash; or Stockton did not have that mentality, you could look at the actual games or even the stat sheets. Stockton stepped up in alot of series, but they never won. I'm going to harp on the talented team point, as well. Stockton in Utah paired with Karl Malone, and even good players like Mark Eaton; Jeff Malone; Thurl Bailey (he was a good player, hell a few season, he was giving them 20 ppg in the playoffs); Byron Russell; Jeff Hornacek, and etc. From 85-86 to 02-03, The Jazz were eliminated in the first round 9 times, and 5 of those times (to be fair one was the Rockets) they lost to a team with a worse record or were a road team in the series. In 89, they got swept by 43 win Warriors team. Moreover, even in the big games, I have to really say did Stockton and Malone really play well enough themselves to win, they are hall of famers, but that doesn't mean they were good enough to win every series or as great as other HOF. There were other years they had the best record in the West and home-field throughout and couldn't beat lesser teams. In 1999, they couldn't beat the Blazers, even though they were the favorites with MVP Karl Malone, in Game 6. In an elimination game, 8 points on 18% shooting. Stockton only mustered 14 points and 10 assists. He was never a great scorer in his career, good playoff teams have a way of taking offensive players best weapons away. The thing is he had a several playoff games, like that, while the Jazz often lost alot of close playoff games. They had their chances, and didn't get it done. Same with Steve Nash and Gary Payton. Steve Nash played on some very talented Mavericks teams, those teams had some good players on them, they were not lacking in talent, and Phoenix wasn't either except maybe in 05-06, when Amare went down. He's almost never been on any bad teams. The Suns were even good 07-08 and 08-09, those teams had talent. Amare (one of the best players in the game); Shawn Marion (in his prime, average 20-10 a game, a few seasons); Boris Diaw (decent forward, very versatile); Raja Bell (easily at the time one of the best defenders in the game); Leandro Barbosa (good pg); Grant Hill (who was still a decent forward to start); Shaquille O'Neal; Jason Richardson; and Joe Johnson. What happened there? I thought they were evenly matched with the Spurs, the Spurs were just played more balanced ball, and could play the half court game and it was the same with Dallas. Alot of people suspected that Shaq would be the case for slowing the D'Antoni-Nash offense. Yes, but a really good point guard could thrive in any system or most players. It's funny, how has never won anything of significance. Running up and down the floor brings offense, not championships. While, he lacked intangibles of Isiah or Magic. Same thing with Payton, he was complaining about the triangle and how it didn't suit his game. He had talent in Seattle as well, for a good part of his career there. Any team that was winning 57+ games or more, has talent on their teams, Jason Kidd could use as an excuse, so could Chris Paul. Cmon but Stockton, Payton, and Nash, you cannot convince me that played on mediocre teams for most of their careers.
I saw that as well. The regular season doesn't mean much though. Just ask Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dwight, KG, Rose etc. Permimeter defense is a huge factor come playoff time as I originally implied. Because the game becomes a halfcourt game thus the length of the court is shortened. Losing Barnes/Pietrus DID hurt as much as I originally implied because J. Johnson and Jamal Crawford both popped off. You expect Joe Johnson to get his but you can't have Crawford average 20ppg throught the series.
I agree with that part, but other posters were using that as criteria against past point guards, like Payton, KJ, Zeke, and others. It works against Kidd (to be fair he was also in decline at that point), somewhat, but not necessarily those players. I've got both outside of the top 5, anyway. It's too close to call, and I thought there were better point guards.
The bold is extremely important. Why? The handcheck rule.All the old school players that "did work" back in the day deserve even more credit than they're being given. Mainly Zeke, Stockton, Payton etc. I think the handcheck rule probably revived the careers of some of the older players... Kidd and Nash but it really benefited Nash.
If your 10-player list doesn't include Gary Payton, your bbs membership should be questioned. :grin: Seriously, the guy is quite possibly one of the 2 or 3 most underrated players I've seen play. He was solid as a passer, great on offense, and ungodly at times on defense. And his mouth should win an MVP as well. Bob Cousy is a legend in the NBA, but his shooting probably made Jason Kidd look like Larry Bird. 1) Magic Johnson - he wasn't a great defender, but the fact he could probably be an all-star at all 5 positions combined with the fact that he was damn-near unstoppable on offense makes him #1. 2) Oscar Robertson - never saw him play, but how the hell do you average a triple double in any era? Wow. I could be wrong, but out of respect alone he's #2. 3) John Stockton - I think his jump shot and mid-range shot were so underrated simply because he was setting up everybody and their mother for assists. Number 4 below said Stockton was the most difficult player for him to play against. 4) Gary Payton - easy to hate because of his mouth, but hard to deny he very well could've been the best defensive point guard to play the game and could drop 20-25 on you every night. Didn't back down from defending anybody and is still making Kenny Smith wet the bed at night. I still remember Steve Francis' first game against him when Payton put the "youngblood" in his place. 5) Isiah Thomas - Great combination of ballhandling, speed, quickness and being able to find the open man. He had some mental lapses and bad judgment here and there, but still among the best simply because he could wreak your defense with his jumpshot or his drive. You could say he was better than Payton, and I wouldn't mind. 6) Jason Kidd (once he got a 3 point shot) - Coming out of high school, Kidd was one hell of a prospect. He was ranked either #1 or #2 in most prep polls at the PG position from what I recall (anybody remember who was sometimes ranked above him? He was a former Rocket). I just remember I hadn't seen many people make ridiculous one-handed bounce passes running at full-speed down the court, one-handed like he did. And, Lord did he have some afterburners. The biggest knock on him was that he couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life. At least he got a 3 point shot somewhere down the road to keep defenses somewhat honest. 7) Steve Nash - he could be a flip with Kidd. He's the anti-Kidd in that he's about as "all offense" as you can get. But whereas Kidd at least developed a good 3-point shot, Nash still has a phobia to defense. lol. He's still one of the most gifted offensive and assist PG's to play the game.
Did this guy just compare the talent level of players like Amar'e and Dirk to Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson? SMH.
Swiss cheese logic right there. And why exactly does everyone want to compare Kidd to Nash exclusively anyway. If I'm not mistaken Nash and Amare went to the western conference finals last year. This year, a much weaker suns team were 40-42 with Nash. Amare and Melo could only manage 42-40 and a first round sweep. I think Nash might have had something to do with Amare' success and vice versa.
amare and melo didn't even play half a season together, and amare and billups were injured in the playoffs.
If you guys saw Isiah play then wouldnt hesitate to put him in your top 5. That dude had a mean streak and the cajones to go with it. 1. Magic 2. O 3. Stockton 4. Isiah Kidd-Payton-Nash is extremely close. Payton much better on D. Nash much better on O. Kidd good O and good D and has been better for a longer period of time. Those 3 can fall in any order 5-7 and a good case can be made for each.
Nice post. I think it's important to remember Kidd hasn't always been playing like this, he's been an offensive liability for most of his career. A career 40% FG speaks for itself, 36% in the season he won a championship. Hooray, he can grab a few more rebounds than your average guard. But we're talking about GOATS here - don't get carried away because he won a title on the coattails of Dirk and Terry. A modified list - 1. Magic 2. Big O 3. Isiah 4. Stockton 5. Chris Paul (projected) 6. Gary Payton 7. Bob Cousy (the first to revolutionize the position, can't go lower than 7) --- --- --- 8. Pete Maravich 9. Nate Archibald 10. Walt Frazier KJ, Nash, Deron (projected) and Rose (projected) could all compete for the last 3 spots. Kidd, I'm not so sure.
Just the fact that he carried those two New Jersey teams to the finals has to earn him a spot in the top 10. I mean man were those teams horrid. Not to mention the huge drop off Kenyon had when once he went to the Nuggets. I agree that Kidd was an individual offensive liability most of his career but that didn't necessarily mean that he didn't create offense through others. Also something people fail to mention is his BBIQ, which has only gotten better over time along with his offense.
The fact that Nash didn't win his MVP over "Michael Jordan; Magic Johnson; Hakeem Olajuwon; Shaquille O'Neal; Charles Barkley; and David Robinson,", etc. doesn't lessen it. He won it over prime Kobe, Duncan, KG, etc.....
this is why its crazy for anyone to put stockton over zeke. zeke took over games, he finished games and he was a good distributor in the process, its a fine line to walk stockton was a great facilitator and he made big shots, see 1997, but he couldn't take over a game. that's what makes zeke a true superstar of the game and really puts him closer to the magics of the world a level above the greats. kj probably could have been there also, remember in 95 the second phoenix choke job it was him who almost carried that team to victory had it not been for the "kiss of death". it wasn't barkley.
