Wow, reading ocelot's take on KG reminds me of why I stopped posting on cf. Though there are those that remember kg taking the pups to the wcf and the fact that he could defend 5 positions effectively.... that gives me some hope. Prime kg is closer to dirk offensively than dirk is to kg defensively. Kg ranks higher than dirk.
Switch out Dirk for Larry and we still lose twice to the Celtics in the finals? That should be the question.
Rodman was a fantastic power forward, though you could not build a team around a player like him. Dirk, on the other hand, is a very good enough player to build a team around. Remember, an elite scorer (Carmelo; Allen Iverson or Kevin Durant) on most occasions trumps an elite rebounder (Kevin Love) and/or defender.If a scorer is unstoppable enough, his offense can carry a team through any stretch of the season. Having a great scorer makes a team more competitive than say someone who is strictly defense and/or rebounding. There's often a premium on truly elite efficient scorers, especially if they are as talented as say Dirk. In the sense, that he is one of the more unguardable players in the league. For his position, Dirk is a mediocre rebounder and an average at best defender (improved under Avery Johnson). Passing skills are maybe a little better than the average power forward, not by much. Not much of a shot blocker or post defender. As far as all time great power forwards go, can't break the top 5, arguablly top 10. (No order) B.Pettit J.Lucas E.Hayes K.McHale K.Garnett K.Malone T.Duncan C.Barkley D.Rodman C.Webber D.Debusschere D,Schayes C.Hawkins B.McAdoo (in between forward and center) - did not make the NBA's 50 Greatest Players list T.Chambers (in between small and power)
In my opinion he should be ranked between 5th and 7th... He is a great international player as well, as NBA dont get a lot of stars from Germany...
What a joke! The guy has career playoff averages of 26/11 and has won 10 playoff series in his career. If you think there are 20 power forwards who have accomplished as much as a team's go-to guy, I'd really love to see the list.
Correct, that was sort of my point. Kobe needs that 1-2 punch, big and small, Pau/Shaq and Kobe. Dirk and Kobe would not win a championship because they do not cover for each other's short comings. I agree with the statements that Dirk plays more like a wing. His game is more comparable to Kevin Durant than any other star in this league. I feel the same way about Durant, he's great, easily top 5 in this league. He still needs Westbrook, Ibaka, and Perkins to play well to win a championship. He needs talented bigs AND a playmaker not one or the other like Duncan and Kobe have won with in the past.
I agree with your Dirk/Durant comparison. But to say that Durant needs both a playmaker and "talented bigs" is not fair. Westbrook is a better playmaker than Kobe has played with in LA, but the "talented bigs" Durant plays with are nowhere near what Kobe has had. I think Durant would do just fine without a PG like Westbrook if he was playing with prime-Shaq or Gasol/Bynum/Odom.
spoken like a true basketball fan ...not a homer or NBA historian.... so is it fair to say we wouldnt be having these Kobe vs Jordan (insane) debates among the "lost" if he career followed that of Pierce or Ray Allen?
I think the poll is underrating McHale by a lot, and overrating Garnett by a little, but I have a question: Who the hell are the 10% that think Dirk is better than Tim Duncan? These are like the 6 baseball hall of fame voters who voted against Nolan Ryan and 8 that voted against Cal Ripken.
dirk isn't better than ANY of the guys listed. one is he doesn't dominate the boards like most other PFs and a poor defender (barkeley is poor too i know). however, he has to be top 10 of all time. the guy's consistency is something to behold. and it won't be surprising to me if he continues this type of production for 3-4 more years. i hated him with a passion a few years back. but i have learned to appreciate his offensive game (outside of the flops). it's remarkable the types of shots he takes AND makes.
QUESTION: In a game of 1 on 1 which ones on the list could he beat? Hell . . . I dunno if he better than Larry Johnson in his prime Was LJ the PF or SF? Rocket River *grin*
Generally in these types of polls . .. it comes down to 1 thing POINTS PER GAME If you are above a person in that category . . .you are considered the better player No one cares about Asst, Rebounds, DEFENSE, etc. Rocket River
I dont even think hes better than a C-Webb in his prime. People forgetting how great of a player C-Webb was.
Durability. Looking at Yao Ming today, I just appreciate Big Man's durability much more than before. Consistency. How hard is to play at almost the same level year in and year out for so long? Almost unstoppable go-to move. I used to hate Big Man choosing jump shots over banging down low. But if one is shooting like Dirk, with such high efficiency, and hard to defend fade-away, I don't mind. We like to label Dirk as soft, but geez, he's German! Doing the same thing every day in all those years, despite all kinds of harsh critics, is mental-toughness to me. I never liked him, probably will not like him in the future either. But I have to admit, he's a great player, definitely Top 5 All Time Best PF. Unless you are No. 1 (I agree with most here, to put TD at No. 1), you can always argue between 2-5, and it does not matter.
cwebb's prime is definitely better than dirk despite dirk having an MVP. cwebb was a much better all-around player. however, dirk will have 3 more all-star years, and thus his consistency is too great to overlook. greatness also takes into account consistency. my personal ranking: 1) tim duncan - the guy literally dominated every facet of the game. 2) karl malone - ZERO losing seasons in his 17 seasons. and easily the greatest scoring PF of all time. 3) bob petit - i never saw his game live, but 26 and 16 as averages? a long of statistical #s are in his favor. nuff said 4) charles barkley - he would be #3 if he was an above average defender. that was his main weakness. but he's 2nd to malone as best scoring PF of all time 5) kevin garnett - he was like tim duncan, but not as good. that's absurd. over karl malone? smh
