in the DAL/LAL thread Dirk's place in PF history was brought up in a few posts and I was wondering where people think Dirk should be ranked at this point in time. i think Duncan is pretty much a unanimous #1, but after that, who does Dirk beat out among the other all-time power forwards? it seemed like after the Finals against the heat and then the embarrassing first round knockout while being named MVP the following year, Dirk started to become underrated as people focused on his failures and seemed to forget (or maybe never realized) that he had not only been a great player for a long time, but had actually stepped up quite a few times in the playoffs. now listening to the guys on Inside the NBA and reading playoff threads, it seems like Dirk has suddenly shed the choker label and is now being looked at as this unstoppable force who everyone is completely scared of, which I'm not sure isn't overrating him. i'd certainly put him ahead of mchale, but i don't think i can put him over barkley or malone at this point, and i'm not even sure if a mavs title this year would do it. it's tough to say he's better than kg once kg's defense is factored in even if kg hasn't always been the best playoff performer (though he isn't bad) and dirk got the better of kg in a 3-0 sweep of the wolves many years ago. and bob pettit played so long ago it's almost impossible to compare but just looking at his accomplishments it certainly seems like pettit was more dominant. so what do y'all think? note: the poll only includes duncan, barkley, malone, mchale, garnett, and pettit as it doesn't seem any other power forwards should be part of the all-time discussion but i put an "other" option if you really think someone else is better. you can vote for multiple people so vote for all of the power forwards you think are better than dirk. presumably less than 50% for any person would indicate people think dirk is better.
Dirk is my #1 All-time least watchable PF. Is it just me or is his game hideous to watch? I'd rather watch Duncan on the elbow staring at the basket for 15 seconds before banking it in.
Duncan is the best PF of our era, probably the 2nd best big man next to Shaq. Barkley was the original point-forward, and Garnett was a superb lockdown defender and a pretty good scorer. Petit had a whopping 25.7 ppg and over 16 rebounds in his sophmore season, that's just damn incredible. And I'll take that hard-nosed, blue collar McHale over Dirk anyday. I hate Karl Malone. Bottom Line: Dirk is a very good player and an excellent scorer, who basically introduced the stretch 4, but he's ringless and his defense is bad. He won an MVP,but his team lost in the first round the year.
I can't stand Dirk as much as the next guy, but you cannot deny his talent. His off-balance shot isn't pretty, but the stroke which often falls right through the net is Larry Bird-esque. If he didn't flop and whine so much I'd respect him more.
This is the state of the game for some players though. If it works (and it IS legal), why not keep doing it? As for the Dirk vs the PFs on the list: Dirk's game is NOT like most of the past PFs. Dirk hits ridiculous shots, long threes, and does drive to the hoop sometimes. The PFs on the list are mostly grind-it-out, back-to-the-basket post move players. Dirk is special, no doubt, but I'd rather compare his skillset to that of a SF, and not a PF.
Anyone remember the statements during the finals last year by the talking heads, and the arguments in the first month of this season: "Pau Gasol is the best big man in the league"
Regardless of his flopping/screaming, the Golden State failure, getting his behind kicked by Wade in the Finals, etc and the fact he plays for the Mavs, Dirk is an all-time great PF. It took me a very long time to get past the dislike and to start appreciating him, but I'm there now.
Actually it is NOT legal. Intentionally trying to fool a ref is a technical foul. And players are also supposed to get fined for it this year. remember...like that was ever going to work. but let's not sidetrack this nitwitz appreciation thread, until the "as good as Bird" people arrive. It's a wonder what Dallas embarrassing the Lakers can do to us.
Pau played like a tiger to start the season and was on everyone's MVP list, but history has told us he doesn't have the ability to sustain that performance over an entire season. I knew he would come down to earth. What's disappointing is how poorly he's done in the post-season. There were a couple of plays yesterday where he passed to Kobe while single-covered about 12 feet from the basket and Kobe zipped the ball right back to him as if to challenge Pau to beat his man in an isolation. In fact, I'm almost sure that's what Kobe was doing.
I have him 5th all time. 1. Tim Duncan 2. Kevin Garnett 3. Karl Malone 4. Charles Barkley 5. Dirk Nowitzki
Overall, I have a hard time saying Dirk is a Top 5 Power Forward but I can't name any power forwards that are better than him other than Duncan, Malone, Barkley, and Garnett. I think the only thing that is holding him behind Barkley and Malone is the fact that he's never been a stellar rebounder during his career. If he rebounded the ball at a better clip, I would put him up there with Sir Charles and the Mailman
This is spot on. He's tougher than people give him credit for and he single handedly turned the Mavs franchise around from when they used to be bottom dwellers. His consistency and body of work is really impressive. Furthermore, he's always had a good/deep supporting cast around him but not another superstar sidekick (Nash didn't blow up until he got to Phoenix).
I agree with the people who say that he is a really big wing player. Can't compare him with those classic PFs. And I am amazed that McHale gets so little recognition. I used to think McHale, Barkley and Malone were the best PFs of all time. (Petit was before my time.) Then when Duncan came along, he bumped off Malone (simply because I just hated him so much). Garnett is very different. He's more like Ralph Sampson than all those traditional PFs.
Dirk Nowitzki was undoubtedly the best player every year on a team that made the playoffs 11(!) straight times. Think about that for a second. That is some incredible consistency. Not even Kobe can say that.
A lot of people associate the Mavs recent success with Don Nelson, Michael Finley, Steve Nash, or most notably - Mark Cuban. But Dirk Nowitzki is the reason they've risen to respectability since the late nineties. He's the constant. That alone is a pretty huge accomplishment considering the previous decade. As for Dirk's spot all-time, I'm biased. I'd put him 3rd behind Duncan and Barkley. I know I probably should have put him behind of Malone, too. I have a hard time putting Garnett ahead of Dirk, just because of playoff performance. I know Garnett has reached the promised land, but he didn't do it in Minnesota. He had to go to an all-star team. So yeah, he's got ring, but it's not like he lead a team to the Finals. So for all of the grief Dirk gets for not being tough, he's done more individually towards his teams' success than Garnett, IMO. And way too many people buy into Garnett's fake emotion, tough guy garbage. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me. He's a sure-fire NBA HOFer. People everywhere are starting to see how special and unique he is. And while the status quo might be more exciting or proven, nothing excites me about any of the other guys' games offensively. Defensively or rebounding, yeah. But offensively I wouldn't trade Dirk for any of them.
Who do you think brought the mental and physical toughness for Pierce and Allen to play great defense...Dont look at his impact offensively, he changed a whole team mindset...I dont recall a Pierce led Celtics team or a Allen-led Sonics team anywhere near any defensive recognition....Garnett is/was a more complete player than Dirk ever will be....... Playoffs achievements is just an excuse for people to hinder ones accomplishments... You cant win it alone...Even Wade had help from the striped men...
