Where do you draw the line - transgender

Refusing to refer to an adoptive parent as a child's parent because they aren't biologically related would be ******* behavior, in my view. By which, I mean, being kind of a jerk. Maybe you think I meant something much stronger by "*******" then I intended. A person can be an ******* in how they deal with someone in a given circumstance and still be a decent person.

You're being defensive and feel the need to lash out. I get it. You relate to what the other poster is saying, and so you feel like I'm basically calling you an "*******". Right?

 

Why then do they oppose the PNOC for trans people?

 

You wouldn't be, I agree.

And, no, I don't think someone thinking they are in a position of royalty when they aren't is a good comparison to someone who is transgender.

 

I don't particularly care; I just don't think people who forget are bigots.

in our small local grocery, a friend of mine (a woman, with a new born and a toddler) happened to refer to the (obviously male) cashier as dude one morning.

the next day there was a sign by the cash register listing all the pronouns he could not be referred to. seemed unnecessary imo.

 

The women who Thomas beat in the 500 supports Thomas as do several other female swimmers.

https://www.newsweek.com/why-im-proud-support-trans-athletes-like-lia-thomas-opinion-1689192
Why I'm Proud to Support Trans Athletes like Lia Thomas | Opinion
ERICA SULLIVAN , AMERICAN OLYMPIC SWIMMER
ON 3/18/22 AT 7:30 AM EDT

This year at the Tokyo Olympics, I saw my wildest dreams come true as I stood on the podium, an out gay silver medalist and one of the first women to swim the 1,500 meter event. I feel incredibly grateful that coming out as gay never kept me from being able to participate in the sport I love. All athletes—including transgender athletes—deserve to be respected and included, exactly as we are.

Throughout my life, swimming has enabled me to learn so much both in and out of the pool, and transgender athletes should not be excluded from this opportunity. All those days and nights spent practicing taught me the importance of hard work and discipline. The love and support of my teammates taught me the power of being part of something bigger than just myself. And reaching the Olympics reminded me that athletes have a global voice, and that the world is listening to what we have to say.

I have been given a platform to advocate for my community, and I can't sit silently by as I see a fellow swimmer's fundamental rights be put up for debate. All swimmers embody a diverse set of identities and characteristics. What makes us each unique also contributes to our success in the pool. Yet no one questions the validity of how cisgender athletes' unique traits and skills, or who they are, contribute to their success. However, University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas has been unfairly targeted for just that—for being who she is, a transgender woman.

Like anyone else in this sport, Lia has trained diligently to get to where she is and has followed all of the rules and guidelines put before her. Like anyone else in this sport, Lia doesn't win every time. And when she does, she deserves, like anyone else in this sport, to be celebrated for her hard-won success, not labeled a cheater simply because of her identity.

Right now, the world is facing a multitude of crises that require our attention, time and energy. Millions of people in Ukraine and around the world are fighting for survival. Globally, there have been more than 6 million deaths due to COVID-19. What we need now more than ever is compassion, and to come together as a global community. And yet this is the time that, here in the U.S., we are wasting resources and finding ourselves divided over a question that should have a simple answer: Should the transgender community be included and treated equally in all areas of life, including sports? Yes. Transgender athletes should not be denied equal rights when compared to cisgender athletes.

Many of those who oppose transgender athletes like Lia being able to participate in sports claim to be "protecting women's sports." As a woman in sports, I can tell you that I know what the real threats to women's sports are: sexual abuse and harassment, unequal pay and resources and a lack of women in leadership. Transgender girls and women are nowhere on this list. Women's sports are stronger when all women—including trans women—are protected from discrimination, and free to be their true selves.

Forcing an athlete to hide an essential part of herself in order to participate isn't a solution. If I were to remain closeted, my mental health would deteriorate, and I wouldn't be able to perform at my best in any part of my life. I wouldn't want that for myself, or for any of my teammates. We're at our best as a team—and as a global community of athletes—when we can all be ourselves.

I'm proud to be one of more than 300 NCAA, Team USA and Olympic swimmers who signed an open letter from Schuyler Bailar and Athlete Ally in support of Lia and all transgender and nonbinary swimmers. At the NCAA championships, I'll be cheering on Lia and all of the amazing swimmers that make this sport great by being authentically and proudly themselves.

Erica Sullivan is an American Olympic swimmer who won the silver medal at the Tokyo Games in 2021.

 

all the women, or just this one woman?

 

Yes and I said this is about people who insist on continuing to not use PNOC. Not about people that just happen to forget.

If people keep on calling her as "him" it would seem like it would be necessary.

For example: Someone named Siobhan (which is pronounced "She-von") frequently gets her name mispronounced. It wouldn't be strange then if she then chose to write on a name tag the proper pronounciation. I know this because I dated a Siobhan and I have a name too that is hard to pronounce.

 

Not all but several other female swimmers have too.
https://www.si.com/college/2022/02/...er-to-ncaa-new-policy-transgender-eligibility

In these debate we frequently have men claiming they are protecting women from the trans. You implied that by saying even one single incidence was too much. Women aren't monolithic in their opinion of trans athletes or trans in general yet so many men here seem to think they know what's best for women.

 

So in other words you refuse to accept trans people for what they are. For @basso this is what I mean by bigotry.

 

@AroundTheWorld I'm somewhat puzzled by your position here. Haven't you posted in the past that you've had interactions with transgender people in the past and used their preferred pronouns? Am I misremembering?

If you had a good friend who is a transgender woman, and they personally ask you to use their preferred name and pronouns because treating them like a man makes them feel bad, what do you do? Do you respect their wishes, even if you don't get it, or do you maintain that what they're asking of you is not "objectively true" and refuse? Seriously, I'm curious.

 

I'd tell them they need to learn what a ****ing pronoun is, because those aren't pronouns.

 

I'll admit I accidently referred to a friend who was in the process of transitioning as "He" . She got upset and I asked her if she preferred "they" or "She" and she said "She". I apologized and said it was my mistake and please feel free to correct me in the future.

I didn't say "You're not a woman" or "My preferences are more important than yours" I respected her position and agreed to address her as she would like. That is what I would like people to treat me so it is only fair I treat others that way too.

 

Honestly, I think the vast majority of people would do the same in a personal interaction -- even if they profess differently on internet message boards. Most people try to be decent and respectful of others when face to face with them. With strangers who we don't know or care too much about, it might be simply to avoid conflict. But for people we actually have a relationship with and care about, we do it because we don't want to hurt them.

 

If I know someone and they clearly want to be addressed as male/female, even though they are not, I will try to do it. But I would totally understand if someone struggles to do that or forgets, especially if the appearance does clearly not match what is being asked for.

And I have seen it quite a few times where people are super militant about being "misgendered", as if one had physically attacked them or something, regardless of whether there was any ill intent.

In reality, people have just addressed someone as what they objectively are, probably simply based on pattern recognition and without any ill intent. That doesn't make them assholes or bigots or "human toilets".

Now, the tone matters, of course - if someone were to go out of their way to do this in a mocking or aggressive tone, simply to make the person feel bad or ridicule them, that would be just as bad as calling someone who is objectively fat or old just that - may be objectively true, but no need to do it.

I mean, my wife objectively has a few too many kilos, that doesn't mean I am going to say it...if only for purposes of self-preservation and survival .

 

my name, which is exceedingly common, is constantly mispronounced, in a very particular way, by members of a certain ethnic group. even after correcting them, they repeat it back to me in the mispronounced fashion. perhaps they're all bigots?

 

you do this frequently in your posts: take a specific incident, involving one person, and then generalize it.

I can't tell if it's disingenuous or sloppy. in either case, if this is how you work, I'm glad you're not working on contracts for me.

 

If they are doing so deliberately to mock you or dislike your ethnicity then they very well might.

Again though this is talking about deliberate actions. There is nothing wrong with unintentional actions.

 

Who gives a damn what pronoun people want to be addressed or what name they want to use? Just like the outrage I see about a Canadian student being kicked out of school because he would not refer to a transgender student by their preferred name. The transgender person's name was not released but for example he kept calling a transitioning "Michelle", "Michael" their birth name. He was given chance after chance. He kept calling the transgender people by their birth or "dead" names. He was kicked out of school. He kept coming back and was subsequently arrested. The funny thing is the kid's name is Joshua, but he expects people to call him Josh. Just like Rafael Edward Cruz wants to be called Ted.

 

Same folks who say "axe" instead of "ask"? That's one that has always puzzled me, where that comes from.