Well, as a military operation is was a great success. They killed the guy they were trying to kill. They did hit civilians as well, but that really doesn't determine whether it was 'successful' or not. Decisions like this happen in every military action. Civilian lives are most often NOT more important that the objective, at least in the minds of the actors. I don't really want to defend Sharon, so I'll leave it at that.
I don't believe that they 'saved' hundreds of lives by killing him. If anything it will onyl escalate the suicide bombings. Most people don't look at dead infants and children that were blown up, and not want revenge. I do agree that saying they 'targeted' innocent children is going too far. But they did knowingly kill innocent children. It's a fine distinction, and I don't think it was acceptable. Israel knew where the leader was. They could have surrounded the building, sent in a team to get him, kept surveilance on him and tailed him until he was out of a crowded neighborhood etc. Instead they used an f-16 to launch the attack in a crowded neighborhood. Neighboring buildings were also destroyed, and people not even the same building as the target were injured.
For me it is impossible to have sympathy for any of the sides in this conflict. The israelis are settling in illegal territory which is the main reason the palestinians are doing terroism. The palestinians do follow a clever strategy as it is not only civilians who are being hurt by terroism but Israel as a state suffers big economic losses by loss of turism and companies staying away and so on. But as far as helping the palestinians reach any political goals terroism is stupid. Can there be peace? I think the answer is yes but the only reasonable outcome I see is if Israel is willing to split the country up in two: Palestina and Israel and only if the borders do not provoke anyone as for example if you would have to drive through a part of Israel to come to a part of Palestina. As far as this endless revenge theme as a reason for doing violence in this area. I must say that especially you americans should start to get why things are like this. You saw what 9/11 did to you all. You didn't exactly look to own mistakes did you! You seeked revenge and you should realize that people do not act on intelligence when they seek revenge they act on hate. Stupid remarks from the president like: If you are not with us you are against us (which really should say if you don't do what we say we will treat you as an enemy) and other statements show this in my opinion So in some ways I unfortunately understand both sides using revenge as a motivation factor but I think it keeps both sides from looking at own mistakes and keeps them from agreeing on anything
FranchiseBlade, Let's get serious. The Israelis would take no action without being provoked by Palestinian suicicde-bombers; they are not the aggressors here. The problem is that I sense that some Israelis (i.e. Sharon, not Peres) feel that they must have the upper hand in negotiations. That means, for instance, that they will not stop building settlements, even though that is wrong, until they get something in return through negotiations. That approach costs Israeli lives.
Well he was a major planner for Hamas. Killing him hinders their ability to strike at Israel. True or not it is not necessarily illogical for the Israelis to conclude removing him would save Israeli lives. Yeah, well some might turn the other way, and say 'this is too high a price to pay.' I feel just as much sympathy for an Israeli child killed in a pizza parlor as I do a Palestinian child killed in this Israeli attack. I am more outraged by the Palestinian attacks, however, since there are not usually MILITARY targets even involved, as I tried to delineate earlier. Its easy to sit here and say they should have put a team in etc. But what if they got a little bit a Blackhawk Down? There were about 20 people killed in the missle attack. Israelis could have easily taken that many KIA's by TRYING to put a team in. Then they get nothing as the Hamas guy gets away, and they embolden the Palestinians, and they've got more dead people. The guy was NOT going to take a car with a big freaking sign on it down a lonely road so he could get ambushed by the Israelis. He was STAYING in a crowded neighborhood for the protection he assumed it would provide him. In the end it is completely understandable that the Israelis would use an option that resulted in the least amount of exposure to their own soldiers.
Cohen, I didn't mean to say that the Israelis attacked for no reason. But I do think that now there is an endless cycle on both sides of they got us, let's get them. I also said that I didn't have a problem with going after the military leader of Hamas, only the means by which they went after him. I think the method that the Israelis used will only cause more violence. I think that in a similar way terrorism by Palestinians only makes things worse for them. Both sides continue to use ineffective means for accomplishing their goals. I also thought that the change should also go both ways. Just as I said that Palestinians should use non-violence instead of terrorism to achieve their goals, Israel should stop illegal settlements, and end oppressive and discriminatory legislation in order to stop terrorism. Neither terrorism(used by the Palestinians) nor Apartheid-like policies(used by the Israelis), seem like the best way to foster peace and goodwill. I apologize if I was unclear previously, and it seemed as if I was saying that Israel attacked the Palestinians first. I think both sides are acting in ways that are self-destructive. I don't think I blamed one side more than the other. I just believe that changing tactics by both sides would be a help. It certainly wouldn't be any worse.
False. The Palestinians were "doing terrorism" before the illegal settlements and will continue "doing terrorism" after the settlements are gone (if that ever happens.) The stated goal of Hamas and Islamic Jihad is the elimination of the state of Israel. To "drive the Jews into the sea." When every attempt at peace is met by a suicide bombing, you learn to stop pulling your troops out and going to the negotiation table. 80 some percent of Palestinians oppose prosecution of those involved in suicide bombing against Israeli civilians. That is not the kind of person you want to be your neighbor.
True, terrorism existed in the region before Israel was even in a state. In fact former Israeli prime ministers practiced terrorism themselves. It's also true that those are goals of Palestinian terrorist organizations. Those organizations should be prosecuted and protected against. Some palestinian terrorists groups such as Palestinian liberation front has at times softened their previous stance to saying they would be willing to recognize Israel as a state. However, plenty of other organizations won't soften and they should be elimminated. One way that will ensure continued 80% opposition to prosecution against those organizations is to knowingly kill innocent Palestinians, relegate them to refugee camps, pass discriminating legislation and establish illegal Israeli settlements. I think one of the best ways to destroy these organizations is to undermine their support. Heavy handed oppressive tactics and indiscriminate killing, etc. won't every undermine their support. It will only guarantee more support and breed future generations of people willing to resort to terrorism.
Originally posted by stra ...As far as this endless revenge theme as a reason for doing violence in this area. I must say that especially you americans should start to get why things are like this. You saw what 9/11 did to you all. You didn't exactly look to own mistakes did you! Yes, this country endlessly critiques itself. You seeked revenge and you should realize that people do not act on intelligence when they seek revenge they act on hate. We seek to protect ourselves for the future. Would you have done any different, stra? Stupid remarks from the president like: If you are not with us you are against us (which really should say if you don't do what we say we will treat you as an enemy) and other statements show this in my opinion When a country is attacked on its own soil, all of its true allies will step up to help. We cannot halt terrorism unless every country actively participates in destroying their network. So in some ways I unfortunately understand both sides using revenge as a motivation factor but I think it keeps both sides from looking at own mistakes and keeps them from agreeing on anything You state that the US's goal is revenge but it is clearly defense. You say that we should own our mistakes. We have made many, but which are the ones that you refer to in this context? Bin Laden's demands are that we stop supporting Israel, and that we remove our military from Saudi Arabia (since we 'defile' their holy land by our presence). Which one of those is the mistake that brought on this attack on our country?
To be a little more clear and straight forward, which was a mistake at all? You can't please all of the people all of the time.
Sadly, I don't see any diplomatic resolution to the conflict until the Palestinian leadership has complete control of their people. Does anyone see this happening? And even if they did, Israel can't offer a solution that satisfies the Palestinian leadership. You want us to dissolve Israel...yeah right. However, I do see one peaceful way it can end. If all of the other muslim states withdraw all of their official and unofficial support, including money and arms from the Palestinians, and then they state that the Palestinians should use non-violent demonstrations, a reasonable solution can be reached. It would take time, but taking the resources to fight away from the people would force them to abide by what their leaders say. However, until that point, every terrorist's act justifies further military retaliation by the Israelis. I would say that they are idiots, except for the fact that their goal is the elimination of Israel. That goal makes their tactics understandable, if not acceptable.
Actually Yasser Arafat(whom I'm not attempting to endorse in any way) has said that he is willing to recognize Israel as a state, and respect it's borders. Most other Palestinians in the current govt. have also said they support a two-state sollution, which means Israel and Palestine both existing. Certain Palestinian terrorist groups have stated they won't tolerate the existence of Israel. It's the move towards acceptance of Israel as a legitimate nation that gives me some small amount of hope that peace can be achieved with diplomatic measures. But both sides will have to change their tactics. One side will have to be the first to change and that seems to be the hardest part.
Cohen I was just trying to say that it is easy to say that people are stupid when they use revenge as a "motivating factor" to engage in war or terroism. And I just used 9/11 as an example of a case where you yourself were attacked on your own territory. ( The only time it has happened isn't it? after pearl Harbor I mean). Many people around the world has seen the USA do warfare or a US supported army or government do warfare in their own country. I am not saying that it has been wrong of USA to get involved in these conflicts as they are all different problems but the hatred of the USA has been built up by that, no matter if it is justified or not.
stra, I understand what you say about the 'revenge' cycle. I guess I don't understand you when you stated: You didn't exactly look to own mistakes did you! , since you didn't address the response to that. I don't think it is reasonable to assume that our country feels some kind of pervasive hatred. You can understand the US a little by understanding which 9-11 issues we focus on now. I now see much more in print (both media and book) about the American heroes from 9-11 and their families than anything militaristic or anything about bin laden. Second, there are the periodic warnings about terrorist activity or targets and how our government is responding to the threat. We do not waste our time demonizing the terrorists. I get the impression that your view of our country is uni-dimensional and rather adolescent.
I have a serious problem with this. IF the US actions are not 'wrong' then what exactly should we do differently. Or more importantly, WHY would we not take an action we feel is 'right'? Out of fear of misplaced hatred? That is not a successful formula for ANY decision making, much less for decisions on what the most powerful actor in the world should do. If there is hatred of the US that is NOT justified, why would we ever stop doing those things? We don't act FOR NO REASON. Each action has a purpose. If we act, and someone unjustly hates us for it, who should be changing? The US or the haters? FranchiseBlade, I agree the key is the first step. But if Israel opened its borders, stopped the oppressive security checkpoints, allowed free movement for Palestinians, there would be a huge upswing in terrorist activity. The Palestinians are going to have to unify their goals, or there will never be peace. It is impossible if these various groups each pursue thier own agenda when they contradict each other.
I agree that these steps can't just happen overnight. I think Israel can take some other actions now, like halting new settlements, allowing the Palestinians to build competitive businesses, and allowing equal water allotments for Palestinians. Keep the security check points for now, as show of good faith. Of course the Palestinians could, as you mentioned, unify their goals, and adopt a policy of non-violent protest. I think the situation is just calling for a good guy. Which ever side moves in that direction first IMO will be the hero.
Did anyone else see the protest last night outside of the Starbucks on Post Oak & Westheimer? I drove past, saw around 50-75 people with signs, flags, and chants. I couldn't figure out the significance of the timing or location, however. Anyone have any insight?
I don't see any way, short of wiping out the Palestinians, that Israel can end the conflict and still exist as a viable nation. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have every opportunity to end it. All they have to do is stop their support of the terrorists and work to root them out and prosecute them or hand them over to the Israelis. The only way for this to happen though, is for their leadership to stop spouting anti-Israel propoganda. Every time they say the word martyr, or run some story about the Israelis giving the Palestinian children AIDS they take one more step away from peaceful resolution and toward their graves. I honestly can't see Palestine get a deal even as good as the deal that they rejected.
Cohen, I think you are right when you claim that you don't act on hatred now and that you perhaps are starting to ask questions about your responsibilities in the world but just after 9/11 that wasn't the case. Just to make things clear I think that the USA has acted surprisingly well in this conflict and I have been very pleasantly surprised over your Colin Powell who now have a very good understanding of the world and has helped serve as a calming factor after 9/11 in my very very humble opinion. I think that we have talked USA in another thread and that you claimed that I am one-dimensional. I felt a little misinterpreted in that thread and just stopped posting after that, but I always said that I wasn't an anti-american or whatever but people were very defensive in that thread is my opinion. You know what that thread was so I just leave it at that.
