1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

When was the last time a team traded AWAY a key star...

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008.

Tags:
Page 3 of 7
  1. roflmcwaffles

    roflmcwaffles Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2006
    Messages:
    2,388
    Likes Received:
    113
    Orlando: Traded McGrady, then sucked (getting better now with Dwight, who would have been there anyways)
    Toronto: Traded Carter, then sucked
    Lakers: Traded Shaq, then sucked
    Kings: Traded Webber, then sucked
    Suns: Traded Kidd, then sucked
    Sixers: Traded Iverson, will suck for the foreseeable future (moreso than before)
    Wolves: Traded Garnett, will suck for the foreseeable future

    You fail to mention the other key facts about this:

    1) NONE OF THESE TEAMS HAD ANY BACKUP (aside from Lakers). We have Yao Ming, he may not be a superstar but he is a great player, and he can help carry the load.
    -Orlando's 2nd best player was Pat Garrity
    -Toronto.. I can't even name another player on that roster that wasn't Carter
    -Lakers didn't suck from getting rid of Shaq, they sucked from getting rid of Phil Jackson, they got some terrible coach and they didn't do what they needed them to. As soon as Jackson came back they were good again (maybe not as good but still good).
    - Kings broke ENTIRE TEAM, it wasn't just Webber leaving it was the WHOLE TEAM (outside of bibby)
    - Suns were bad because they gave Kidd for Marbury, God punished them for being r****ded.
    - LOL Sixers weren't that good to begin with give me a break.
    - Wolves (see above at Sixers)

    Just realize all this.

    Also another player that actually PLAYS vs. a guy that sits hurt would not hurt us. <-- This is not me saying give him away for crap, but if we can get Solid return we go for it (Jefferson + a pick + a player) (Kidd + something) I don't know something along those lines. We need to get some value back, but if we get it I say go for it.
     
    #41 roflmcwaffles, Jan 9, 2008
  2. wheelmi

    wheelmi Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2002
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    1
    Funny, but you actually just described McGrady's first two seasons. Kobe played 71 & 79 games (that's not playing right?), respectively in his first two seasons, while Mac only played 64 & 49 (because of his position on the depth chart). Lop off the first two seasons, and McGrady's (71.25) average games per season are identical to Kobe's (71.27).
     
    #42 wheelmi, Jan 9, 2008
  3. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    16,127
    Likes Received:
    2,812
    Outside of the Lakers trading Shaq, it is tough to find teams that trade away a superstar and still have one on the roster. Also, I just used players whose names appeared on the first players page list on basketball-reference, which tends to skew to older, hall-of-fame players.
    Nope, poor reading comprehension. Best case scenario is we immediately win a title as the Warriors did when they got rid of Nate Thurmond. In addition, if you stay the same the following season but have less salary committed; younger, developing players; or players that can better adapt to the team/system then you have a better chance at a title a few years down the road. I didn't include the teams that won titles 4 or 5 years after trading away a superstar, I only discussed the season immediately following the player's departure.
     
    #43 StupidMoniker, Jan 9, 2008
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2008
  4. jajayao

    jajayao Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2003
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    6
    You do realize that Tmac was playing without Grant Hill for most of his career as a Magic, only averaging 12 games a season. And the year that Tmac left for Houston, Grant Hill finally came back from injury in 04-05 playing 67 games. Coincidence that they wont 15 more games? Or was it because of Franchise and Mobley? lol
     
    #44 jajayao, Jan 9, 2008
  5. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,846
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    You are basically agreeing with me. Those teams had to trade their stars because they were in dire situations and needed to start over. We do not, and it would be a setback we cannot afford. Regardless of the situation, the result is always the same.


    1.) Richard Hamilton > Jerry Jackhouse. If anything, Washington was the one trading away the star. Jerry is not anywhere near the level of the players I am talking about.

    2a.) As I said to the last person that brought this up, they did not trade Hill. He left them in free agency; it was a sign and trade.

    2b.) If not for Hill's injuries (and don't say McGrady's problems are anywhere near as bad), Orlando would have made out like bandits.

    2c.) The Pistons and Bulls are both showing right now just about how important Ben Wallace is to their way of winning.

    2d.) The Pistons sucked for quite a while after that trade until they managed to put together a solid team with other moves... in other words, they basically completely rebuilt themselves. Again: we cannot do that.
     
    #45 SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008
  6. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,846
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    I forgot about this... that's another reason my Magic example holds up, heh.
     
    #46 SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008
  7. Seth

    Seth Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    25
    When the rockets traded Francis and Casell for McGrady they become better
     
    #47 Seth, Jan 9, 2008
  8. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,846
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    So there is like one exception. Wonderful.

    Most of the teams that win a title (or improve at all) 4 or 5 years later do it with an entirely new roster, and basically no one important left from before the trade.

    That is why having Yao Ming would not matter if we traded McGrady. We would most likely get completely incomparable talent in return for McGrady, and Yao is simply not good enough to get the job done like that. No one (other than Duncan) is.


    The above applies to you... Sure, we might still be good with Yao, but we would no longer have the potential to be great for quite a while.
     
    #48 SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008
  9. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,846
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    Um... yeah... We were the one trading for the superstar.

    Reading comprehension.
     
    #49 SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008
  10. AzCkR

    AzCkR Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2001
    Messages:
    982
    Likes Received:
    68
    you can only play in the d-league within the first 2 years of being in the nba.
     
    #50 AzCkR, Jan 9, 2008
  11. Seth

    Seth Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1,741
    Likes Received:
    25
    Francis was a superstar by that time..
     
    #51 Seth, Jan 9, 2008
  12. Agent94

    Agent94 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,579
    Likes Received:
    3,994
    Dallas let Nash walk away for nothing and got better.
     
    #52 Agent94, Jan 9, 2008
  13. hieuytran

    hieuytran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    558
    Likes Received:
    628
    usually those teams were looking to rebuild and get younger and get draft picks....

    if we were to trade tmac we need to get as close to equal value as we can...a couple of players that has already been a proven commodity in the league and maybe a draft pick to go along with it....i dont think that would make us suck after that
     
    #53 hieuytran, Jan 9, 2008
  14. chenglug

    chenglug Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2006
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    4
    Orlando: Traded McGrady, then sucked (getting better now with Dwight, who would have been there anyways) They sucked even more before letting him go, 0-19 to start the season
    Toronto: Traded Carter, then sucked
    they entered play-off, ranked first in their division very soon
    Lakers: Traded Shaq, then sucked
    this can be a valid example, but shaq was a dominant player, arguably No.1 player when they traded him
    Kings: Traded Webber, then sucked
    already sucked before the trade, can't make it into playoff
    Suns: Traded Kidd, then sucked
    Sixers: Traded Iverson, will suck for the foreseeable future (moreso than before)
    already sucked
    Wolves: Traded Garnett, will suck for the foreseeable future
    already sucked, missed playoff
    The only one I can think of is Marbury (he used to be a star, if you remember)... but he was always overrated, and was always replaced by Jason Kidd or Steve Nash.

    So most of your examples didn't support your point...
     
    #54 chenglug, Jan 9, 2008
  15. Icehouse

    Icehouse Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2000
    Messages:
    13,654
    Likes Received:
    4,018
    They used that money on J.Terry and Dampier I believe. They also had other assets like Jamison which nabbed them a top lotto pick (used on another PG) and hit later in the draft with Daniels and Howard.

    And off topic, that's another reason why I was against trading Gay. He is a better asset than Battier.
     
    #55 Icehouse, Jan 9, 2008
  16. TheFreak

    TheFreak Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 1999
    Messages:
    18,304
    Likes Received:
    3,310
    When was the last time a "key star" didn't win a playoff series in 10+ years?

    When was the last time a "key star" got BETTER in his 11th year and beyond?

    To the question "When was the last time a team traded AWAY a key star... and actually became better anytime soon as a result?" -

    It is not possible to do WORSE than the Rockets have done in the McGrady era. They simply haven't won anything.

    When you hold on to players too long, it makes it far more difficult to improve "anytime soon". There were plenty of people who wanted to trade Hakeem in 1999 and not let him finish his career in Houston for this very reason.
     
    #56 TheFreak, Jan 9, 2008
  17. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,846
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    I have already addressed everything you said several times in this thread. Read it. I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself. You are basically agreeing with me because you do not understand the premise of this thread.

    But I'd like to point out something else: In every single one of my examples, not only did the team trading away the superstar get worse, but the team trading FOR him got better:

    Rockets got better with McGrady
    Nets got better with Carter
    Heat got better with Shaq
    Nets got better with Kidd
    Nuggets got (a little) better with Iverson
    Celtics got better with Garnett

    The only exception is Philly; Webber had no positive impact for them.... So I'm sure whatever hypothetical team we would trade McGrady to (thankfully, management is smart enough to make sure this remains hypothetical) would be very happy...

    Which is exactly what my examples were for. That NEVER happens. We would get raped in just about any realistic trade scenario.


    They didn't really get any better. They haven't really accomplished anything more than they already accomplished with Nash. They in fact came very close to beating the Spurs in the WCF before losing Nash if not for a Dirk injury.

    Anyways, that is not remotely the same thing.


    How is this that hard to understand? The Rockets got the better end of that deal. They traded Francis for a better player. That's why we got better. Sure, we traded away a star, but we traded FOR a better one, that is the whole point of this thread. Trading FOR the star helps. Trading one AWAY hurts. The only reason we got the better end of the deal was because the Magic were the team shopping McGrady. We were not the team shopping Francis. Right now, you guys are saying that we should shop McGrady, and in that case, we WILL get raped.

    But sure, if we can trade T-Mac for Lebron, f***, go for it. Good luck with that.
     
    #57 SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008
  18. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,846
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    Garnett comes damn close.


    Steve Nash. Incidentally, he has back problems, too.

    Then there's all those guys who made their most significant accomplishments after or near the age of 30... Hakeem, Jordan, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Drexler. Sure, they had all been out of the first round before, but they got better at that age.

    Anyways, didn't you ever learn it was impolite to answer a question with a question?


    Oh things could be a lot worse... when we are healthy, we have always been at least a top five team in the NBA. The problem is that those other four teams are always in the same conference.

    You may be frustrated with the way it has turned out so far (I am too), but we are not going anywhere right now by breaking apart our core. We have two options: 1.) Keep trying with these guys, and hope that the tweaks we've made around our core will finally be enough. 2.) Blow it all the **** up and start from scratch.

    There is no in between. If we trade McGrady (or Yao, for that matter), we might as well start all over and trade everyone. If we try to do something in between and trade one of these guys, we will be stuck at the most hopeless level of NBA mediocrity for years to come.
     
    #58 SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008
  19. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2006
    Messages:
    3,846
    Likes Received:
    1,528
    ^^^
    Oh, and I should point out that I fully believe that the tweaks we have made WILL be enough now.

    Yao and McGrady have really only played two seasons together (05-06 doesn't count for obvious reasons), and in one of those two seasons, Rafer ****ing Alston was the salient third option getting 36 mpg. We have changed that this year.

    So sit tight, shut it, and show some patience.
     
    #59 SuperMarioBro, Jan 9, 2008
  20. rocketshopeful

    rocketshopeful Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,515
    Likes Received:
    22
    not a trade.. But mavs let nash go and became better.
     
    #60 rocketshopeful, Jan 9, 2008
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 7

Share This Page