well you at least need to do your homework on this thread. Iverson was mentioned on the first page. You can make an infinite post on how Tmac coulda woulda shoulda won anything in Orlando. The same thing could have been said about Grant Hill, he coulda stayed with the Pistons and got himself a ring with Billups/Sheed/Wallace/Rip The bottom line is you could say If Tmac had (insert any era's team that won anything) then Tmac = winner But the bottom line is that he's not. Look, the day came where people stopped posting about Yao Ming getting haircuts in the GARM. the day will come where Tracy in Orlando will not be mentioned in the GARM. Freedom, I won't let you down. Freedom, I won't give you up.
Vinsanity did bring up AI, but you yourself also compared AI to Tmac IN ORLANDO. You were talking about 2001, when the Rockets weren't in the playoffs, when Dream played his last games as a Rocket. I was wrong about you specifically bringing up AI, so I apologize about that, You proceeded talk about all the great things AI did, shoot 42 %, average almost as many Turnovers as assists, can't play man defense, shot 32 % from 3, took more 3's than tmac, his free throw attempts dropped in the playoffs, took more fga per game in the playoffs, but he only shot 39 % then. etc. He did enough to get to the finals, but he had great rebounding, defense, inside presence and a great coach who was much more experienced at the time...Rivers was coaching his first playoff series ever...he didn't win a playoff series until he got Pierce, Allen, and Garnett. AI just had a lot more on his side for him not to lose. but you do put in your share to the Tmac in Orlando posts...I simply think he's taken wayy too much heat for the team's failures...just like Hakeem took too much heat from 88 to 92 when the team didn't get out of the 1st round or even make the playoffs...it wasn't Dream's fault, but the idiot media and idiot fans who believe the media didn't mind blaming Hakeem. Tmac taking too much heat includes his career from 2000 to present day, that timeline includes his time as a non rockets...I include that to help ppl realize that the man has never had help and when he got help in 2008, his best player got injured and was out for the playoffs. When they got even better supporting cast, he himself gets injured. Even the Rockets in 94 & 95 had their share of good luck Seattle losing in the 1st round twice Barkley missing free throws in Game 5, KJ missing his 22nd free throw after making his first 21 in a row in Game 7, Nick Anderson missing 4 in a row (was never the same the rest of the way) Dennis Rodman misbehaving in San Antonio, (Didn't show up in a few games mentally) Utah not scoring on the clock malfunction, (even though the refs didn't catch it) Starks going 2-18 in game 7 (he got the same shots he made in game 6) Tmac hasn't had that type of luck EVER in his career... he hasn't had talent and depth he hasn't had health (nor his teammates Hill and Yao), he hasn't had luck, (Grant Hill, Yao injuries, Game 5 Dallas, Game 7 dallas, game 3 utah 07, Game 2 and Game 6 Utah 08) he hasn't had productive veterans who know how to win around him, unlike other star wing players (Kobe, AI, Pierce, Carter, Wade) You need those things to win...one or two players can't do it alone, its just too tough in the NBA. just listen to what JVG says about Tmac...thats a guy who coached him for 3 years. He feels the same way that Tmac took too much heat.
Yes I picked that specific season because it was the year Tmac went to Orlando after Toronto. He played in the eastern conference when the Sixers won the conference that year. So I think AI, Vince Carter and Tmac are all at their best that season. We know what happened in the playoffs, AI went to the finals, VC made it to the 2nd round and lost to AI's team by 1 bucket, and Tmac...first round exit. that was the results. Luck? No. it was Tracy's choice to sign with Orlando and all the consequences and responsibilities that came with it. As mentioned before, he could have been on that team with VC to battle AI. Sure, Michael Jordan, Hakeem, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Bill Russell, Walt Frazier.. they were lucky Tmac.. blame it on luck! it's always ENDLESS EXCUSES FOR TMAC. I'll play the tmac fan what if game.. If Tmac made it to the Finals, he would have been destroyed by Kobe/Shaq combo. then, there would still be "If Tmac had someone to guard Shaq".. you see how this never ends?
Why would Tmac stay on a team with Vince Carter, who was a less talented but more athletic version of Tmac?? Especially when he wasn't paid to his talent, while his cousin got the max $?? Why shouldn't he have gone to Orlando?? WITH Grant Hill, the best all around player in 2000, and in his hometown?? Your telling me you would stay on a team, for ALOT less $, even though you are better than the supposed best player on the team, who plays the same position as you, with an aging team who had no future...Orlando had a better regular season by 2002, and Vince Carter's injury problems started then as well...what did Tmac he risk by going to Orlando?? Face it, WITH Grant Hill, Orlando had a MUCH BRIGHTER future...but unfortunately Grant Hill was never healthy with Tmac. In all honesty, you know, I know, and EVERYBODY knows that Tmac has had the worst luck of any star NBA player on the court. The 2 players that he was paired with as a star player, both injured. He had the best all around player in Hill and the best center in Yao, and they both have shortened primes because of their injuries, and lets not forget Tmac's own injuries. Also, the year AFTER Tmac leaves, Grant Hill plays 68 games and averages 20 ppg with Steve Francis...but luck has NOTHING to do with it right?? Even though Hill only played 47 games TOTAL in 4 years with Tmac. But, I'm not blaming it on luck alone...if we faced the Sonics in 94 or 95, we may not have 2 titles here...if Barkley, KJ, and Anderson don't choke on free throws, we may not have 2 titles, Dan Majerle had a HORRIBLE shooting series in 95 vs. Houston, Barkley was injured in Game 7 (bad left knee), so he wasn't as active and scoring as much as he would usually in a playoff game. if Starks doesn't gag in Game 7, and hit those very same shots that he hit a game before, we may never have 1 title. With taht being said, Dream and the Rockets still took care of business, but A LOT of things had to go right for us. Thats all I meant by luck. I also mentioned lack of talent/depth, lack of interior presence pre-rockets, lack of health, and lack of PRODUCTIVE VETERANS...you don't win without them. Those were the major factors going against Tmac, but luck had its role as well.
Why would you assume I would question that?? If Tmac made the Finals, he would've been destroyed just like the 76ers...NOBODY was gonna stop the 2001 Lakers. If Tmac had the team to make it past the 1st round back then, we wouldn't be having this discussion, so I don't see how that makes any sense to be quite honest... unless you would still find a way to hate on Tmac, I don't know
I don't hate tmac. I'm tired of failure and excuses. I'm tired of " if tmac". I'm tired of the spurs and mavericks having more success than us. If you had watched the best era in rockets history you would be tired of failure. Your top paid player should do more than this.
This is coming from someone who watched that series. The Rockets team that lost to Seattle in 93 lost in 7 games with very bad officiating in the overtime. Still they were one Kenny Smith shot from winning. They won cause they had the home court advantage. they had home court advantage because the Spurs won an overtime game that should have never happened against the Rockets. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ax9n6JJgq-E&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ax9n6JJgq-E&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> the big WHAT IF (what if the refs made the call correct and the Rockets beat the Spurs and won homecourt) I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU BROUGHT UP THE SUNS. They were up 3-1, THEY CHOKED and CHAMPIONS DON'T CHOKE. Dan Majerle? Are you kidding me? He got clamped down by Maxwell in 94, and the Rockets shut him down in 95. Call it HOUSTON ROCKET DEFENSE Not LUCK. Call it CLUTCH not LUCK. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wfhhBN9L8Sg&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wfhhBN9L8Sg&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> Starks is a STREAK SHOOTER, do some research on that please. Either he will shoot and go on fire, or he will miss a ton of shots. Maxwell is the same way, but who showed up in game 7? Starks is in the video, he's the one getting tossed aside <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ASxTyFlLYso&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ASxTyFlLYso&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
I'm tired of the failure too, BUT theres only so much ONE PLAYER can do...Thats why I don't blame Tmac and Yao completely. They are both injury prone, and neither are are as good as Shaq and Kobe...what CD and JVG thought, and convinced many fans that, and paid them like they were as good as Shaq and Kobe. You can't blame them for taking that kind of $, the Rockets offered it, and if they didn't, we would've been a lottery team for 10 years instead of 4 years. Tmac and Yao atleast made us competetive, bad moves by CD and JVG(supporting cast) and injuries have derailed us more than anything... What more do you want Tmac to do from 2004-2008?? I don't know how much more he could've done...just look at the box scores of the playoff games, and ask what could others have done? http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mcgratr01.html look at his playoff #'s in Houston...then look at the boxscores I listed at the bottom of the page, and compare. What else did you want Tmac to do? Shoot better, sure. I agree, but who was gonna take the pressure off of him? He can't score over double/triple teams or zones all day...he needed help, Yao and Scola were the only 2 who were consistent. Game Logs: http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=mcgratr01&year=2005 http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=mcgratr01&year=2007 http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=mcgratr01&year=2008 Playoff Boxscores: http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200805020UTA.html (Game 6 vs. Utah 2008) http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200704260UTA.html (Game 3 vs. Utah 2007) http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200705050HOU.html (Game 7 vs. Utah 2007) http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200504300HOU.html (Game 4 vs. Dallas) http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505020DAL.html (Game 5 vs. Dallas) http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200505070DAL.html (Game 7 vs. Dallas) He can't do it by himself...simple as that. Nobody can.
He helped make Orlando a Lottery team. And what exactly has Orlando done since then?? Oh! they made it to the Finals! The Spurs were a lotto team, they got some dude named Tim Duncan. The Cavs were a lotto team, they got LeBron. I wanted Tmac to actually win a series for the Rockets. But then again, he's not a franchise player, he's not Tim Duncan or Kobe or Lebron or Dwight Howard. We are paying him franchise player money. And he's not going to get better as he ages. Bejamin Button this guy aint. It's time to get someone who can get the job done.
I didn't bring up 1993, I said in 1994 they may not have beaten the Sonics, they definetily wouldn't have in 1995, because with a very similar team, they got swept in 1996 vs. the Sonics. But I agree, we did get screwed in 1993...could've witnessed Dream vs. Jordan if not for that. Majerle did have 3 productive games vs. the Rockets in 1994, then I guess the Rockets figured they shouldn't double off of him...but he did get some pretty good looks in 1995, (since Chilcutt, Brown, and Horry couldn't gaurd Barkley) he just didn't hit them. I'm glad Elie hit that shot, but we don't take that shot if we were down by 1, instead of being tied, since KJ missed his only free throw of the game, after hitting his first 21 (47 point game, destroyed Cassell and Smith). But that was stupid defense by Phoenix...just like in 1993 with the Paxson shot...Westphaul should've learned from that, but thats their mistake, and we took advantage of it. I know Starks was a streak shooter, but that streaky??? Thats just the complete polar oppositte of what he had in Game 6. He had wide open looks, and in the last minute or 2, shot a 3 from the top of the key and it fell about 3 feet short of the basket, and nobody contested him...but he could've taken closer shots. But regardless he had a HORRIBLE shooting game, and they paid for it an luckily Mad Max did show up and hit that 3 to put us up by 7 with a little under 2 minutes to go. I'm a fan of the 94 and 95 Rockets...I'm just saying a lot went their way...whether it was bad strategy by the other team, injuries on the other team, or another team being eliminated before you have to face them...I call that a small bit of luck. Not taking anything away from the Championships though.
It was suppose to go to Dream but Horry decided to pass it to Mario. Yes KJ was awesome, that Phoenix team was the same team that went to the Finals against the Bulls and took them to 6 games. Mario Elie and Vernon Maxwell's performances in game 7s we call that "Clutch"
Orlando didn't make the playoffs for 2 years, they lost in the 1st round the next year, and they they happened to beat a Celtics team WITHOUT KG in a game 7 (wouldn't have won otherwise) and beat the Cavs by exploiting all ther weaknesses and Lebron can't cover those weaknesses on their own... the Magic showed their true colors in the Finals. Lets see how well they do next year in the playoffs...bet there will be a lot of dissapointed Orlando fans out there. Also, Nelson and Hedo were signed for cheap, 2 very important parts of their team. How does Tmac actually win a series for the Rockets?? I posted the box scores, I posted his playoff stats as a Rockets...what else is he supposed to do? He can't shoot shots for other players, he cant average 15 rebounds per game, he cant' block 6 shots per game, he can't average 7 spg. He's not superhuman. He could've shot better, but he can't do that if the entire defense is geared to stop him, knowing that nobody else will show up. When teams doubled Hakeem, he had Smith, Horry, Elie, Cassell, and Max to hit 3's and create if they needed to, also Bullard, Jent and Brooks if needed. He had OT to rebound and finish strong around the basket too...in 95 he had Drexler who could score just as much as dream and wasn't a bad rebounder either. If teams doubled Tmac, they weren't worried about Rafer shooting...he shot 32% in 44 mpg...Battier would barely shoot at times. Yao didn't always produce himself due to foul trouble. Head and Howard would dissappear in the playoffs, and Chuck hayes was a starter, and Deke was a starter another year...2 non factors on offense, 3 if you include Rafer. I agree he's not Duncan, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, etc...but he was offered the BY THE ROCKETS AND CARROLL DAWSON. Don't act like you would turn down more $ to do your job if somebody offered it...who wouldn't? That was just another one of CD's stupid $ moves...what can you say?? How do you blame Tmac for acceptign 23 million dollars per year?? He can't help that the GM wasn't the best GM out there...
Forgot to mention that Ryan Bowen, another non factor on offense (a weaker, slower, slightly more skilled than Hayes) was a starter in 2005... in all 3 years in the playoffs, Tmac had atleast 1 player who could not score, and they weren't exactly Dennis Rodman either.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199505160PHO.html Another thing I forgot to mention...Game 5 vs. the Suns in 1995, Clyde has the flu, but guts it out and plays 32 minutes...only problem he understandably wasn't able to be productive (0/6, 4 points, 2 rebounds) But who would've EVER thought that Chucky Brown of all people would help bail us out?? He scores 15 points on 6/11 shooting, with 8 rebounds and a steal. Also, Barkley scores only 3 points in the 2nd half and overtime (after scoring 14 in the 1st half...also goes 1/6 from the line, including 3 in a row he missed late before finally hitting 1 to put them up 2. Also, remember the Rockets went on a drought late in the 4th quarter, and couldn't score to save their lives...Pheonix didn't capitalize after taking the 1 point lead, then Barkely went 1/4 from the line, and then Hakeem hit that jumper right over Shayes to tie it, and Person's 3 goes in and out, otherwise thats our season. Then in overtime, Elie's airball lands right in Horry's hands as he's crashing the boards underneath the basket and he gets fouled as he lays in the put back...and not to mention we got outrebounded 68-49!! with Barkley and Green both having 20 rebounds each... Tell me luck had NOTHING at all to do with that...there's no strategy in the world that can get Chucky brown to produce 15 points in a playoff game, I'm not saying our title was won on luck, but we had just a little bit to help us... especially in Game 5.
The Magic have gotten to the same place the Rockets did. They got to the Lakers in the playoffs and they lost.
They wouldn't have gotten there if KG was healthy in the playoffs...Kobe might not have his ring right now if KG was healthy. We'll find out next year how great the Magic and DH12 really are.
