Was listening to a podcast the other day and had no idea that most everything during this phase 4 has been middling to ok. I have not watched a marvel movie since Endgame and I knew Black Widow and Shang chi were disapointments but it seems the latest Spidey and Doctor movies where something of a disappointment as well yeah they made a ton of money but nobody seems enthusiastic about them. The pod was talking about Love and Thunder and how just ok it was, nothing is hitting on disney+ the moonknight series seems to have bombed. The Eternals was a huge miss. So what is going on with marvel? Is it oversaturation? Trying to appeal to too many people? Not focusing on the right characters? The tone of the movies? ( This was talked about with Love and Thunder it seems the comedy aspects were too much) How would you get Marvel back on track? I would start by making the FF the center of the Marvel universe like the Avengers and they can add different characters before doing a Secret War or Galactus type of event movie. I would go to more of a PG, R type of movies like Deadpool but more serious, Silver Surfer would be the centerpiece of that. They need to do more standalone movies and not have everything leading to an endgame type of conclusion. They don't have to integrate everything which I think has a detriment to a lot of stand-alone movies.
I'm afraid of what they're going to screw up next, but I'm more of a former Marvel comics junkie than an MCU fan, so I'm jaded. Silver Surfer is awesome, but I always thought the idea of a cosmic-level power from an incredibly advanced civilization who just so happens to ride a surfboard through space was about the funniest thing ever.
I thought Spider Man was considered to be good by the fanboys? And Dr Strange not too far off? I think they have too much content. They cant ALL be winners. And that's fine. Nobody was reading EVERY comic that Marvel put out. Each title/s had its own fans. You don't HAVE to watch everything. I think the mistake would be to up the ante prematurely (like DC). Not every "phase" has to be an all out thing. Let it play out. Lots of different connected storylines going on right now. Not 1 big arc (yet). The biggest hurdle IMO is the origin story. They're all always somewhat the same and there's not much you can do about it. Ms Marvel did about as good a job as you can. It's just a stale topic. But I'm fine with them just putting that content out there and building the brand for it. Fans expect too much. Spoiled. Complaining about nothing.
Here's the deal. They're transitioning from known, built up franchises in Cap, Iron Man and Black Widow to a bunch of newbie characters. At the same time, they're expanding their footprint into tv with their Disney+ shows. They're ALSO working on bringing in the X-Men and Fantastic Four franchises. So they're setting up new cornerstone characters while expanding the story to a new big finale that brings in these other franchises. As with any business, there's only so much you can handle on your own and you have to delegate. Kevin Fiege's job is sort of the mastermind but he also has to deal with corporate bullshit and political correctness direction from their parent company. It's a tightrope. It's inevitable that some of the people you delegate to will fail or at least not achieve the level of success you have. With all of these incoming franchises the MCU will have multiple plotlines and threads much like the comics. Don't expect an all-character crossover very often as each of these branches of the MCU, like Avengers, X-Men, FF, Horror, etc will have their own big arcs. Phase 4 has been so-so because it's a rebeginning but people have higher expectations. Then you couple it with lots more content and different directors/creators and it's going to be a letdown to supernerds. Spiderman was amazing. It's the #3 best MCU movie IMO. Doctor Strange 2 was a strong B+ Loki was a strong B+ Wandavision was a B+ What If...?, which was animated, but had MCU ramifications, was a B+ Ms Marvel was a strong B Thor was a weak B Shang Chi was a B- Black Widow was a B- mostly because it was cliched Moon Knight was a B- Hawkeye was a B- Falcon and Winter Solder was a C+ Black Panther 2, Ant Man 3, Guardians 3, The Marvels and Fantastic Four are upcoming for Phase 4 so we'll probably see it finish strong. And that doesn't even count the upcoming shows. So overall, yeah, it's a little lackluster so far, but I think it still has legs and this is a transition phase. I think, if anything, people are a little 'woke' fatigued. Just make good entertainment and we'll be good.
So expecting a good entertaining movie is asking too much? I was underwhelmed by a lot of phase 1 especially the Iron man and Thor movies but they were new and something I could enjoy just to see them on the screen. I was very disappointed in the 2nd GOG movie and it seems these phase 4 movies suffer from the same thing, villains nobody really cares about and plots not being very interesting. I think since they did not have the rights to a lot of the A-list superheroes they leaned too far into the secondary heroes and got some hits but now that they have the X-men and FF the real big guns and need to make movies accordingly.
They built the franchise on a lot of B-level heroes and now they have the big guns,they have been less than a little lackluster, and it's been through a string of movies, they have done nothing to build any anticipation for a phase 4 conclusion. What has been woke about Love and Thunder, The spidey movie or Dr Strange? What is more woke than the phase 3 stuff? That's the problem the entertainment has not been good and it's not about the woke parts. Is wokeness the issue with all of the Disney + stuff not hitting? You seem to grade everything on a fanboy curve, and GOG3 is not a sure thing Ant Man 3 is even less I have no idea what the Marvels are it could bomb like the Eternals, they are going to need a new set of directors as well and new stars, not easy things to continue at the previous level.
Spiderman and Strange 2 can be considered box office successes. 1 success per year isn't that bad right? Haven't watched Thor yet, but I suppose mediocre would be like having nothing but Antman releases every 5 months. When you come off an Avengers movie(s) that capped off a 10 year building process, there's kind of an expectations creep from Year 10 when the reset is more like a Year 1 or 2. I'm not saying "Wait till 2030 for it to be gud again," but we now expect a lot more during their rebuild. We might think Xmen or FF4 are there for the picking to go full throttle with it previous movies, but it doesn't work like that in reality (Avengers vs Dawn of Justice) D+ series are interesting in the sense that it can dilute brands, but it also gives opportunities to do experimental shows that would have no business being in the movies (Ms Marvel...Moon Knight). Putting them inside the MCU with MCU sized budgets is a risk, but it sets them apart from trash DC TV series where movie goers aren't compelled to watch. The woke stuff can be annoying but Panther and Ragnorak were woke and conceptually different from the previous movies, so they just need to work on the balance. Yep. My ratings fwiw. Spiderman was worth missing all the spoilers. I prob had 10% spoilage from that thread, and that's from personal interest: - A or A+ Doctor Strange 2. Liked Wanda wrecking a world with throwaway Avengers. Incredible pacing and +1 for Zombies. A- Loki - TV standards wise had strong production values and detailed environments. Fell flat in the end because of TV/MCU constraints. B+ Wandavision - Took too long to cook for me, but was an interesting watch: B (for TV) What If...?, - Can't complain too much about popcorn anthologies. Some hits, some misses...was actually important for setting up context to Strange. B Ms Marvel - I paused watching it after the second episode. Will prob watch now that it's complete. Incomplete Thor - Incomplete Shang Chi - Was okay but didn't really fit in the MCU outside a few cameos. Missed opportunity with the Mandarin or even Fin Fang Foom. B- Black Widow - Felt misplaced. Might've been better if they went the Rogue One route. I really wanted a prequel with the Russo Bros behind the cam and would've tolerated Hawkeye.. C+ Moon Knight - Expectations were off for me. Didn't like the main persona, and feel MK is not a finished product... Like an origin movie where you hope the sequel is twice as good. B- (for TV) Hawkeye - Hated the first two eps and Katnis but they both turned me around by the time the series ended. Story had hidden Die Hard theme. B+ Falcon and Winter Solder - Meh...had the opposite reaction to Hawkeye where I was sucked in the first couple eps but couldn't like the ending no matter how much I tried. C+
Who is the next Thanos type villain? I still haven’t seen the Eternals, and don’t plan to. They announced the Shang Chi movie, and my initial thought was “who the hell is that?” I eventually watched it, and didn’t hate it, but would never watch it again. He is supposed to be relevant to the overall story moving forward? all the Thor movies outside of 3 have been trash none of these new characters have built themselves up to Iron Man, Captain America, or even Black Widow level it feels like we’re focused on the C team
As a non Marvel fanboy, I would say the movies are generally mediocre and have been since the beginning, with a few exceptions. Maybe the excitement and newness of the concept is just wearing off. It's incredibly oversaturated. How many of these things need to come out every year? I have zero interest in Disney+ anymore because its just nonstop Marvel after Marvel content. I also don't think every story needs a sequel or five. A casual "fan" doesn't need to see 10 stories about the same people. I would also suggest new blood on the creative side, these movies don't all need to be the same tone, same plot lines, same dynamics (Taiki for instance did that, and Thor 3 is one of 2 Marvel movies I think are legitimately great films). There are so many of these movies, they could all be very different from each other and often times they aren't.
I think they just need to be entertaining to SOME people. Not everybody. I read X-Men, Spiderman - but I didn't read Avengers, Ghost Rider or Blade. Wasn't my thing. I loved Iron Man. But good point. Lots of duds in Phase 1. I did not like Captain America 1 at all. So "duds" are nothing new. I thought Wanda, Bale, Dafoe, were cool. I'm sure Kang will be cool. There have definitely been worse villains. For me, this goes back to, you have enough going now. Save some big guns for later. Embarrassment of riches. Blowing the entire wad too soon could backfire.
I don't think the classic Avengers were B-level heroes at all. I think the public is sick of any 'woke' at all. So there's a backlash to any perceived 'wokeness'. It has nothing to do with Marvel per se. I do think it has an impact. I won't go into detail, watch on your own and make your own opinions. The Eternals was pretty bad. I'm a fanboy but I'm also an action movie fan. There's a certain balance that needs to be struck between story and explosions. If the MCU movies sucked and the DC movies were amazing, I would be honest about it. Marvels is Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel and Photon. Ant Man and GOTG3, if they follow their formulas, will be good. If they deviate, they will suck. This isn't new to franchises and we see it a lot outside of the MCU.
This is the question that will deprive people from enjoying the content. The impatience. People are yearning for the next BIG THING but don't want to wait for the payoff. They'll never match a more contained universe like Game of Thrones, but that's the blueprint - on a larger scale.
Superhero movies are all the same these days. Half the time the need for a superhero exists because the superhero exists.
Yeah people sat through 10 years with no expectation of Thanos level baddie. Wanda wrecked the Illuminati but people complaining…too overpowered “Next Thanos Wen"
RDJ was the Michael Jordan of Marvel. He made everyone around him better. Now Marvel is like the 2000 Bulls. It will get better. After we’re all dead.
There's an incredible emptiness to the stakes now. As integrated as everything is, phase 4 isn't pulling together like prior phases. Haven't seen Thor 4 but quite a few of the more recent movies had giant CGI finale with mega power vs mega power. Kinda boring.
