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What would Jesus say about evolution?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Two Sandwiches, Jan 3, 2006.

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  1. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    i don't see the Fall as necessarily an actual event. i don't know that it had to involve apples and gardens. Jesus came and spoke in metaphor...in parable. i think it's at least possible that the garden of eden story is metaphor to show that man is fallen...that what once was, is no longer...and that we are, indeed, in need of a savior. to me the concept of the Fall and the need for a savior is very evident...but i realize that all don't see it that way.
     
  2. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    Now if he could just come back and heal Yao's toe and T-Mac's back.
     
  3. thadeus

    thadeus Contributing Member

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    This is what Jesus would say about evolution;

    "Hey Darwin! Nice beard, you cranky old b*stard!"

    Then he'd throw a fish at him and all the apostles would laugh.
     
  4. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    Well I don't really believe in the Adam and Eve story either. It does seem pretty mythological... But then what was this evident fall, and what were we before it? To me that's vital to the rest of the story. Personally, I need to understand what happened to cause the so-called original sin, the hereditary stain, the bringer of "death", to understand the need for a savior. Otherwise it's just a truly great myth.
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Much like one of the first posts in this thread I think Jesus would ask how that discussion affected the spirit. He would then suggest that maybe people concentrate on becoming better followers of God, and leave the science and history to the scientists and historians.
     
  6. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    the original sin is disobedience. God is love his commandments are to worship God, and love others etc. Humans disobeyed and didn't act lovingly, thus they need redemption for those acts. The fall equates to people not acting out of love and loss of innocence. Since we all lose are innocence we will all act out of motives that aren't based in love, thus we need forgiveness.

    In comes Jesus who says that we shouldn't just love our neighbor, because anyone can do that. He upped the anty and said we should love those who wish to do us harm. He was suggesting going above and beyond with love. Mankind as a whole needed it then and still does. One look at current events tells us we still need it.

    None of that is contingent on evolution.
     
  7. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    Original sin is inherited. We are born with it. Our soul is already stained. But there must of been a time when it wasn't. Mankind didn't need a savior. When did this change occur? Sounds like something an anthropologist would be very interested in.

    And I have seen some selfish, ******* dogs. Did they have a fall too? Do they need a doggie savior? Or maybe they just have the same desires as man..

    I think evolution is essential to the ultimate message of Jesus. Evolution is change, it is growth. It is rebirth.
     
  8. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    For an atheist, the true message of evolution should be purposeless change...as purposeless as tomorrow's weather. Sure, an atheist egotist could sprinkle some Nietchze or social Darwinist BS...but for that type to claim that our evolution had a purpose is like saying that humans we're destined to have 5 fingers or 1 heart....

    For everyone else who applies... the purpose of evolution would be tied to our actions and Whoever commands Nature. Should nuclear winter strike tommorow for 5000 years, those poor SOBs then would be very different than we are right now. Same would go if another Great Flood engulfed the Earth and Waterworld wasn't just another guilty pleasure to watch.
     
  9. Two Sandwiches

    Two Sandwiches Contributing Member

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    Sorry that I'm responding so late, but that's what I was wondering....I was pretty sure he'd believe in creationism. ;)


    So, with Jesus believing in Creationism, in his mind, is every Evolutionist/Anthropologist an Anti-Christian? Would he condemn them, etc?
     
  10. Two Sandwiches

    Two Sandwiches Contributing Member

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    Also, what would he say about the find of varying skeletons that show a gradual evolution into the modern human?
     
  11. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    I am not sure I understand this. Wasn't Original Sin the eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge? From there humans were no longer innoncent since they had knowledge of shame and God cast them out for disobedience.
    I understand that Jesus's sacrifice was an act of love but I don't understand how that wiped out the sin of knowledge.
     
  12. hz10

    hz10 Contributing Member

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    I don't know what kind of DNA evidence you refers to. Although the ape genome project, if there is one, has not been reported, you can rest in sure that their DNA is very very similar to ours. You can still argue that similarity could be the result of common ancestor or common design. The bottom line is that, from bacteria to human, all life forms on earth share many similarities at DNA level.
     
  13. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
     
  14. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    Genesis 3:2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Yes, God cast them out for disobedience.

    'the sin of knowledge' is referenced above- Actually the sin was 'ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.' which means you will be 'god' and you will decide for yourself good and evil'.

    Here is a fundemental issue- man decided to be as gods. Once man elevates himself equal to God and decides for himself what is right and wrong man commits moral treason. If you could assume for the purpose of discussion that the God of the Bible exists, then it is understandable that to reject His commands and set up your own government is a rejection of His right to be God- thus treason or anarchy is committed.

    Every man (as his own personal god) does what he sees is right in his own eyes irrespective of what God commands.

    Hitler did good in his own eyes. Every 'sin' has its own personal justification. This is the root issue of sin- rejecting God's authority for one's own.


    "I understand that Jesus's sacrifice was an act of love but I don't understand how that wiped out the sin of knowledge"

    Because it was also an act of judgment and punishment-

    Because of sin God and man were in conflict. Man in rebellion against God's authority- man not only broke God's law, but challenged His right to be God.
    'It is one thing to not pay your federal taxes and another thing to attempt to overthrow the government.'

    Jesus as man and God stood in the place of man as He went before Pontious Pilate. He was representative of man's sin. God sent His Son to the cross as a punishment for sin. Not Jesus' sin, but ours. He was like a sacrificial lamb- willing to lay down His own life for ours, like a ransom for us. It is important to note that God the Father put Jesus His Son on the cross.

    The suffering and death of Christ was purposed to be horrific and demonstrate both God's judgment and punishment of man's sin (in justice) and His willingness to offer forgiveness to man (in mercy). It was a mediation between God and man, an offer of pardon to all who repent and believe. (place faith in Christ)

    Note- I use man representative of all mankind.

    I am trying to give some thought without being too sermonizing, if that helps any????
     
  15. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    I don't think being an evolutionist/anthropologist would make someone Anti-Christian.

    I don't think Jesus would condemn someone for being an evolutionist.

    Could God have created man according to the Genesis account? Could we be living on a young earth?

    I guess He could if He actually exists and is as Great and Almighty as described in the Bible.

    A sincere evolutionist who is trained to believe that way could still believe in Christ.

    Evolution only challenges a literal reading of the creation accounts. But certainly once evolution eliminates God from existence there is a conflict born.

    My personal problem with evolution is two fold- from a scientific stance it presumes certain 'origin' guesses (like the origin of matter and energy) to maintain credibility and then builds concrete determinations based upon those initial guesses. And from a spiritual stance I think modern evolutionists eliminate design by God by assumption using circular reason- if there is no God there must be evolution, if there is evolution there must be no God.

    Scientists who begin with the belief that there is no God and then formulate opinions about origins are biased. As are those (creationists) who base their ideas on origins on the belief in God. These biases are unavoidable in my OPINION.

    Evolutionary science neither disproves or proves God. So from a spiritual standpoint there are other factors for such beliefs. Since these factors are avoided in the discussion I am a skeptic of evolutionary logic.

    For instance any primitive humanoid fossil will be examined with bias- the evolutionist who rejects God will be biased that the skull must either be linked to early man, early ape or early ape-man (common ancestor). This bias rules out the possibility that primitive humanoid fossils could fall only into the two categories of early ape or early man (no common ancestor).
    Both of these biases create subjective methodology and basic assumptions concerning the actual nature of fossils.

    All my opinion. I am not a scientist, that has been proven beyond doubt.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    The fruit was the fruit of knowledge, but the sin was of disobedience. Jesus dying didn't wipe out that disobedience in itself. He merely delivered the message and the way to uphold the original intent. He showed a great example of forgiving, which is the only way to move past that knowledge of evil or the dark side or whatever it is that shatters innocence.

    Obviously mankind still has need of that message, just look at the state of world affairs.
     
  17. MR. MEOWGI

    MR. MEOWGI Contributing Member

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    Forgiveness only comes through understanding. So wisdom is really the way.

    But if the story of the Fall isn't an actual single event, like MadMax thinks, then there must of been a long time before the need of the savior due to the time involved in evolution. The creation story says that Adam, the first man, disobeyed. With evolution there really isn't a first man. We are all continuations, and we are still evolving. So the story implies that man has disobeyed from the very beginning. In the context of evolution, and not a literal interpretation of the creation story but rather it used as a metaphor, how did this happen? What exactly did we disobey? A needed belief in these "stories" really turns me off. Or does the creation story really just pertain to ourselves? This is really toooo much for me. I think I will just go with the four noble truths, it makes a little more sense.
     
  18. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Yes, wisdom is certainly a key. I don't think that is contrary to Christianity at all. In fact it is part of the bible to seek out wisdom.

    What we disobeyed was the concept that we love, and live in harmony.

    There is no needed belief in any story. Either you can see the parallel, and wisdom behind it or not.

    As far as evolution, yes, it is ongoing. But everyone alive today is genetically related to the remains of one man. They thought they found one woman also, but then a tribe turned up that wasn't a perfect match for the female remain's DNA. There may have been other genetic families out there that died off, but every single person alive today is genetically related to the remains of one man. There is a fascinating Natl. Geographic special about it.

    It isn't necessarily relgious or have anything to do with the story of Adam from the bible. Anyway I don't see anything unchristian about believing in the four noble truths. But do what you will.
     
  19. Sishir Chang

    Sishir Chang Contributing Member

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    I'm sorry but this confuses me further. From reading your description here then it seems like Jesus's message was directed at God to forgive humanity.

    Now it sounds like the message is for humanity. Is the message for humanity to forgive God for punishing humankind for Original Sin?

    Again I hope this doesn't come as a slam because I am trying to understand this better.

    My own understanding had been is that Jesus redeemed humanity through his own sacrifice and in that way took on the burden of Original Sin. From what I've heard in Judaism there is a tradition of a righteous man taking on the sufferings of others so Jesus was acting as a rightesous man to take on the punishment for all of humanity himself. Of course I'm neither Jewish or Christian but curious about the topic.
     
  20. rhester

    rhester Contributing Member

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    We share that understanding,

    I would say it this way- Jesus provided a redemption for humanity for all sin.

    "Jesus was acting as a rightesous man to take on the punishment for all of humanity himself"- you have just preached the Christian Gospel!
     

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