glynch -- i say this with all sincerity..thank you for the tone of your response. i'll do my best to respond in kind... 1. I can't point out that he said we should have charity without it being funded by tax dollars...but i can't find that he said the affirmative either. 2. The whole render unto Caesar thing is probably my favorite story in the Bible...the religious leaders have him cornered...they're hoping to show him as rebel-raiser to the Romans...and show him as a farce to the Jewish crowd who resents the Roman Empire. So they paint him in a box and ask, "so what about paying taxes?" and Jesus responds by, "render unto Caesar what is Caesar..but render unto God what is God's." There are a ton of angles on that. But I think he was saying, YOU are God's...render yourself to Him. And your taxes...sure, pay your taxes...obey the law of the land, because God commands that as well. It was absolutely a brilliant answer. Too often we paint Christ as sort of a suffering servant...but he was nothing short of brilliant. I am in awe by that answer...how many times do I leave a court hearing saying, "man...i wish i had said THAT!" 3. I do believe national defense is important...but I don't want you to think I'm against all welfare! Quite the contrary! I just want to make sure that welfare is not mistaken for charity...and that it's not a crutch by which people choose to live on rather than finding meaning in the productivity of a job well done. Teach a man to fish, and all that stuff! I'm all for money going to jobs training programs in particular...and I have no problem with unemployment help and other forms of welfare...just hope to see it not abused. I will also be the first to tell you that the church has fallen down on the job, universally. We have an awful AIDS crisis in Africa that the church here in N. America needs to wake up to quickly! "When I was hungry, you fed me..." 4. See Gootan's post about charity...again...charity comes from the heart, not from the end of a gun or the threat of imprisonment. Christ was all about the heart...about changing hearts. Again..that's not to say that publicly-supported welfare shouldn't happen. It should...you have to provide that for people in some form. You and I just probably disagree in how far you go in providing that. But again, the church needs to an even better job of helping..there is no question of that. I don't want this to turn into a sappy message here...but it's clear you have a good heart, glynch. We disagree a TON...there's probably no one here I disagree with more...no one who sees the world more differently than you do, from my perspective...but I hope you understand that I'm not out to screw people over...that I am compassionate to the plights of the underpriviliged...I can honestly tell you that I literally weep when i consider my personal blessings juxtaposed with the suffering of the world...literrally...and I can't help but consider the question, "why isn't it me instead of them?" i'm certainly not any better than anybody else...and i don't have the answer to that question. I can't help but think about kids who have gone weeks with little or no food in this country and abroad when my kid eats well each day...when he has nice clean clothes...and a roof over his head...and a mother and dad who love him so much, they'd do just about anything for him. All I can do is try to help as much as possible and pray...and teach my kid to be appreciative of every breath of life he has.
. And most dangerous!! We had a church in town here that had one flip... thankfully no one was killed... The irony of Jesus driving at all in and of itself is astounding to me in the first place... it's all overly ironic. And strange. It must be the end of the world as we know it.
I thought some of you might like this book- How To Rescue The Earth Without Worshiping Nature- A Christian's Call To Save Creation by Tony Campolo. Also, I see nothing inherently wrong with SUV's if we're going to be driving around pieces of metal & steel. We certainly have the capalities of making large transportation vehicles that run off of clean energy and don't emit carbon monoxide/dioxide. Forget the no SUV's plan and let's promote the clean SUV's plan and include all vehicles that use the combustion engine. Clean garbage trucks, 18-wheelers, trains, school busses, lawn mowers, airplanes (a succesful flight was completed in Hawaii testing the all-solar unmanned aircraft at altitudes of up to 90,000 feet. Both wings are covered with photovoltaic panels), and boats. Then Jesus could travel by any means he wanted without causing pollution. Although, he'd still probably walk or hitch a ride .
Speaking of, Ford is coming out with a Hybrid Electric version of their Escape SUV soon. Certainly not perfect, but a big step in the right direction, I believe. No word on Jesus' feelings toward Hybrid Electric SUVs.
Ok, I have to make some time for this thread. It won’t surprise you I’m sure that I view things a little differently. I agree that the “bottom line” objective was to change hearts, to address eternal life rather than just our earthly existence. But he did this by showing compassion to people, and this was not merely a rhetorical act, it was who he is, and by showing that compassion for sick, weak, poor people he showed the character that comes from a changed heart. We are called to live by this spirit in every aspect of our lives, and that includes casting our ballots and supporting political initiatives. By showing compassion for poor and less fortunate, individually, and collectively in church groups, other social groups, and elected governments at all levels (which we have ownership of and responsibility for through the democratic process), we show a changed heart and hopefully help change a few hearts. By doing this we are doing what Jesus did. True. It is ultimately about changing hearts and that is about a process and choices. And as part of that process he did do these things, and he called us to do them too. Compassion is both a means to an end, and the fruit that comes from that end, a changed heart. Matthew 25 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' The charity comes from supporting the initiative that will feed the people. That’s where the work is done. Once the collective has sanctioned the initiative and it has become law, then it’s just a matter of doing your Christian duty to obey the law and pay your taxes. I should add that government programs are probably the worst way to make meaningful contact with people, but the reality is that without them many people will fall through the cracks and not even have the basic necessitates of life. From a Christian standpoint I don’t thing that just supporting basic social welfare programs and paying our taxes is enough. I think that personal action and contact is far more effective at changing hearts. True. Given that our democracies make us the lawmakers, I would say yes. Everyone in a democracy plays a part in making law. It may be a small part, but we each are responsible for the part we play. And as you say, we are called to help our fellow man. I should also add that what real “help” is is not always easy to tell. Basic food, clothing and shelter issues are pretty straight forward, and fairly directly referenced in the Bible too (see above). But other things aren’t so clear. Is work for welfare a good thing or not? Is it training and experience, or is it exploitation? Is it wrong to own an SUV, or is the real issue somewhat different? These are grey area questions for me.
You beat me to it! I think we’re actually not that far apart in our positions. I do think the government should be part of the solution. I don’t like the waste and the misdirected and political nature of some of the programs, but universal programs are the only way to reach some people. We should certainly try to clean up and make the government systems more efficient, but we should NOT under fund the programs that provide the basics. The people who suffer are those who can least afford to suffer any more. If we need to clean our systems up that’s our responsibility, not theirs.
Ummm... that's an extremely radical protestant view of good works. Neither Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, nor moderate protestantism would sanction that view. I also think it's contrary to the Biblical texts. Jesus, himself, but emphasis on sensualism and material benefit as well as spirituality (as evidenced by various pericopes). I really don't think you should state your opinions in a context when representing Christianity as a whole. You do have some textual basis in Paul and John... but Mark and Luke, in particular, provide contrary evidence. Not saying you're wrong... but I think your statement is misleading. It should have been prefaced by "conservative Protestants..." or something.
Originally posted by haven Neither Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, nor moderate protestantism would sanction that view. I agree. I don't expect them to. I also think it's contrary to the Biblical texts. Jesus, himself, but emphasis on sensualism and material benefit as well as spirituality (as evidenced by various pericopes). If you classify blessings, 'treasures in heaven', and spiritual fruits (i.e. love, joy, peace,...) as sensualism and of material benefit, then we're both right. But I believe my definition is closer to the truth. I really don't think you should state your opinions in a context when representing Christianity as a whole. You do have some textual basis in Paul and John... but Mark and Luke, in particular, provide contrary evidence. I can if from my extreme perspective I believe that the Bible truthfully describes what defines a Christian, and not vice versa (that the person determines what the Bible says a Christian should be from his own interpretation.) You'll have to share these contrary evidences with me since I don't know what you are alluding to. Sorry. Not saying you're wrong... but I think your statement is misleading. It should have been prefaced by "conservative Protestants..." or something. Well in extremism, being misleading is equal to being wrong. And I hate to be wrong, although I usually admit it when I am. One thing you should understand about my views of Biblical understanding, mankind can only understand what the Holy Spirit impresses on us. So the best academics in the world when relying on their own abilities would only come to foolish conclusions when compared to the understanding of God. For us to know God, His purposes, and His ways, God has to reveal all of it to us. (By the Holy Spirit through His Word, the church, prayer, and circumstances.) So He accomplishes all this through His relationship with us. Good works don't make the Christian, they are the results from being a Christian.
agreed...i find very little in your post above that i don't agree with. there are questions of degrees in how far you're willing to extend social programs...when do social programs (designed to help) actually create a reliance on a handout that does more bad than good for individuals? but if anyone here thought that it was my opinion we should abolish all forms of welfare, i'm sorry...that's simply not my opinion. gootan -- your last sentence on good works...yeah, i'm with you on that one...they are the product of a christian...they don't make the person a christian...that's my view...certainly any individual or other denomination is free to disagree with me.
Very well said. Maybe we really should go to lunch. I work downtown. Where do you work? There are good things to be said for bbs discussions. However, sometimes the facial expression and tone of voice mean more than the written words themselves and disagreements don't get so out of hand.
I love how I took a joke thread and (with a little help) actually turned it into a serious discussion.
