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What will it take to make you seriously consider an EV?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by jiggyfly, Mar 31, 2021.

  1. Buck Turgidson

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    You know a vehicle sucks when a Dodge diesel owner is complaining about service and parts.
     
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  2. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    That's your opinion I think Volvo and Audi have great looking EV's and I like the Ford, Jaguar and Cadillac better than the Tesla suv. I also think Tesla is going to have big problems with other companies compact and subcompact EV's.

    Are you really arguing if billion dollar companies cannot build on what Tesla has already done and cannot make improvements? It's only happened to every new technology in the history of man.

    Tesla having 80% market share means they ripe for competition since consumers like to have things that are different and that 80% is because they never had any real competition.

    And Tesla is only leading VW by 1% in market share worldwide.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/541390/global-sales-of-plug-in-electric-vehicle-manufacturers/
     
  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    When are you gonna include the joke?

    :D
     
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  4. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    Is that’s why Nokia came back so strong against apple, and blockbuster took back the crown from Netflix? Incumbents are slow, that’s why they got disrupted in the first place, even moreso the case for heavy manufacturing which moves at a snails pace with 7 year product cycles. Choice is nice but only matter when there are competitive offerings, Tesla crushes the “competition” on every performance metrics and tech, at LOWER price, while innovating faster.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/inside...deo-tesla-model-y-vs-ford-mustang-mach-e/amp/

    Any unbiased consumer that does two minutes of research is going to come to the same conclusion as the other 80% of people.

    Can billion dollar companies build on what Tesla has done? You realize Tesla is the hundred billion dollar gorilla in the room right? Their market capitalization is now more than all other automakers combined, they could buy Ford and gm tomorrow if they wanted to, but that would be as silly as apple wanting to buy Nokia.

    Lastly I like vw, I think they have a real shot at becoming the Samsung in that apple analogy, but those market share stats you are talking about are “plug in” which include hybrids. Pure BEV is what we are talking about when we say EV, hybrids are just a gimped middle way stopgap.
     
  5. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    So we are talking about <$30k here, Tesla is coming out with a $25k compact car within the next two years. You can’t beat Tesla on price while matching performance, none of these incumbents can.

    Let me explain something. The core value add of an EV is the battery, that’s like the engine for a gas car, these incumbents perfected that and if you have a high performance engine then you have a highly valued gas car. Tesla is the largest manufacturer of batteries in the world, and by next year with their new 4680 battery lines running they will be larger than all other battery makers combined. With that scale comes the lowest cost which passes down to the price of their cars since the battery is the most expensive component. Tesla is the innovator in batteries, and they are by far the largest producer and consumer of batteries. When you talk about incumbents catching up, gm Ford bmw Mercedes vw etc etc, they don’t even make their own batteries and all buy them from Korea and China. How competitive would a gas car have been the last 50 years if they didn’t even make their own engines?

    I think the mistake people make is looking at an EV and a gas car and thinking they are both just cars so gas car makers should easily catch up. In reality the core of the two, especially the value add is completely different. What does gm Ford know about batteries? They may as well come out with their own gm smart phone and go compete with apple.
     
    #125 CXbby, May 24, 2021
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
    B-Bob likes this.
  6. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    What the hell does Nokia ot blockbuster have to do with this and why are you leaving out all companies like Samsung and Amazon as people who got into the business later.

    Tesla has 53% of U.S market share.

    https://evadoption.com/ev-sales/evs-percent-of-vehicle-sales-by-brand/

    What does Tesla being a hundred billion company have to do with anything and them buting the other companies means squat.

    I hate to break this to you but most people buy cars on brand loyalty and looks and don't care about research and the research will tell them that these other cars are comparable and you ignored the fact that most people but suv's compacts and sub compacts and Tesla does not have variety in those areas.

    As for the article you posted I don't think you must have read it because it said this

    Comparing the Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium 4X with the Tesla Model Y Long Range (as they are closest in both price and specs - see infographic below), the Model Y does beat out the Mach-E in many categories, but it’s not a landslide.

    So why would someone choose the Mach-E over the Model Y? Well, when it comes to your wallet, the prices are still in the same ballpark. Ford qualifies for the full $7,500 EV tax credit, while Tesla no longer does. So the Mach-E’s affordability can (conceivably) outweigh whatever shortcomings it has when compared to the Model Y.

    And then this.

    Then, of course, there's brand loyalty that plays into a decision when buying a car. Earlier this year, Autolist looked at the Ford Mach-E vs. Tesla Model Y comparison and conducted a survey to see which way consumers leaned. Interestingly, those surveyed were split (almost) evenly between the two brands — with 51% preferring the Ford.

    And that was written by a Tesla guy

    This article comes to us courtesy of EVANNEX, which makes and sells aftermarket Tesla accessories. The opinions expressed therein are not necessarily our own at InsideEVs, nor have we been paid by EVANNEX to publish these articles. We find the company's perspective as an aftermarket supplier of Tesla accessories interesting and are willing to share its content free of charge. Enjoy!

    The article makes my point for me.
     
  7. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    you might want to read your article as well, that’s 2018 data. Their market share has increased to 80% in the US since then.

    And yes the Ford gets subsidized by $7500 while the model Y does not (where is the outcry now btw) so if you factor that in it MAY be competitive, but still lacking in charging network and technology. Without subsidies it is not competitive, and the subsidies only last for the first 200k units sold by every manufacturer.

    Tesla is the apple, the Netflix. Amazon? They were the disrupters in e commerce, Tesla is the Amazon of ev.
     
  8. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Most people are not looking for performance with a compact and subcompact cars, i'm starting to think you don't really understand what most people are looking for in a car.

    It does not matter if Tesla is the innovator just like Apple and the smart phone other companies can and will create things better and cheaper and then it will become a choice to consumers.

    Just because Tesla says they will have 25K compact in 2 years does not make it so just look at how long it took them to get the Y out their and companies already have electric subcompacts and compacts and they are cars that already sell well.

    I see you are a Tesla fan boy and that's all well and good but anybody that knows the history of manufacturing knows that Tesla will lose market share as more choices become available just like Apple.
     
  9. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    Ok that's correct but it still has to do with there not being that many choices.

    I really don't know what you are arguing anymore yes Tesla has a better charging network and Technology but all of those things will be competitive as the other major companies start selling Ev's.

    Why did you ignore what he said before the 7500 credit and after.

    Comparing the Ford Mustang Mach-E Premium 4X with the Tesla Model Y Long Range (as they are closest in both price and specs - see infographic below), the Model Y does beat out the Mach-E in many categories, but it’s not a landslide.

    Then, of course, there's brand loyalty that plays into a decision when buying a car. Earlier this year, Autolist looked at the Ford Mach-E vs. Tesla Model Y comparison and conducted a survey to see which way consumers leaned. Interestingly, those surveyed were split (almost) evenly between the two brands — with 51% preferring the Ford.

    So already 51% of people like the Ford better which proves my point that people go by looks more than tech
     
  10. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    The model Y came out 6 months earlier than announced.

    Like I said, as the largest producer of batteries with the highest economies of scale Tesla will make the cheapest compacts.

    I mean of course in the long run there will be competition, I’m not saying there never will and that Tesla will own the market. It’s just that we have heard about this competition coming for 10 years now and the current offerings are still sorely lacking. One day for sure real competitive offerings will come, and Tesla will indeed lose market share and just turn into old boring Apple as the largest company in the world.
     
    #130 CXbby, May 24, 2021
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
  11. SuraGotMadHops

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    I feel like EV offerings across all makes are going to get better and better with time, and the infrastructure to support these cars (quick charge stations) will improve as well. I have it planned that my current truck could be my last gas fueled vehicle, I plan to keep it for several more years until the wheels fall off, then transition to EV, assuming the improvements and trajectory of offerings continue to get better.
     
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  12. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    Just look at the info graphic and decide for yourself instead of listening to his opinion. Better specs across the board at almost $10k cheaper price. How the hell is that remotely “not a landslide”? Unless he’s including the $7500 tax credit.
     
  13. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    why would I not listen to his opinion and why do you think people pay more attention to info graphics than on how a car looks?

    The vast majority of car owners do not buy cars based on specs and the tax credit means its not 10k higher.

    It's funny now you got a problem with guy whose link you put up to bolster your argument.

    Lol.

    And the Mach-E is more like the X than the Y and the X is much more expensive.

    And Jaguar makes a Suv that is more luxurious than the X for a better price.
     
  14. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    Because the tax credit doesn’t last forever, that’s why Tesla doesn’t receive it anymore. Eventually the sticker price is what’s going to matter for the Mach e assuming it sells any significant volume.

    What makes you think the Mach e is more like the X when it has less cargo capacity than the Y? The X is a much bigger car that seats 7 comfortably and higher end.

    You might want to check on Ipace sales. No one buys that thing, battery range no where near advertised.(Guess how it looks didn’t matter that much)
     
  15. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    https://insideevs.com/news/465552/jaguar-ipace-sales-reaches-new-record-q4-2020/
     
  16. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    pls read that article yourself. It’s had terrible sales for 2 years since coming out. It had one good quarter recently so “record sales!” lol.

    record sales of 7800 last quarter while Tesla sells 200k like what are we talking about here? How much does looks matter again is that what you are trying to prove?
     
  17. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    I ts on the uptick and I am not trying to prove anything just refuting the fact that you think that Tesla has no competition and that these other carmakers will not eat into a huge share of the market from Tesla.

    What are you trying to prove?
     
  18. CXbby

    CXbby Member

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    1. Tesla is currently far superior in tech, battery, performance, and comparable cost
    2. there’s currently no competition (except maybe in China)
    3. it’s not easy for incumbents to catch up
    4. Also just pointing out some facts you got wrong
     
  19. thegary

    thegary Contributing Member

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  20. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

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    How superior Tesla is in tech and battery performance has no bearing on the discussion and even that is debateable.

    Yes there is competition why do you think all of these companies are implementing new EV's.

    VW is already making huge gains and analyst predict they will pass Tesla globally.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/palash...t-with-software-or-batteries/?sh=797c14e665b6

    UBS anticipates that VW can seriously challenge Tesla's leadership in sales volumes by 2022 “driven by a plethora of [new EV] launches.”

    VW is already the top EV seller in Europe — Dan Levy, an analyst at Credit Suisse, wrote in a recent research report that in Europe VW climbed to the leading position in the all-electric car market in 2020, with a 24% market share, up from 13% in the prior year, while Tesla’s comparative share in Europe plunged from 29% in 2019 to 13% last year.

    This is the reason why other companies will "catch up"

    “Tesla has yet to prove it can produce vehicles anywhere near the scale of the incumbents, who have proven they can switch their internal combustion engine production capacity over to make EVs,” he says. “Further, the incumbents have a large cost advantage because they’ve already built and paid for their production factories while Tesla still has to build their factories.”
     

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