Geeezzz, You guys would argue if you we're hung with a new rope! ------------------ Everything you do, effects everything that is.
The line would make perfect sense, IYO, if Miller had said "speak" instead of "speak of"? "Speak of" makes no sense, but "speak" makes perfect sense?
Forget this post. The next one explains better. [This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited June 12, 2001).]
First off, just because I have a different opinion than you doesn't mean I don't understand what you are trying to say. I can tell by what you are writing that you are not getting what I am saying. I'm not going to call you names or impugn your ability to understand just because your concept of the song we speak of (not simply speak) differs from mine and that of many other people. And he didn't speak of the pompatus of love. He said "pompatus of love". He made no effort to expound on the (nonexistant) concept. The difference is that I'm separating the Maurice character from Enter Maurice from the singer of The Joker. Steve Miller is not Maurice when singing The Joker. He's Steve Miller. He then says that some people may call him Maurice because of the previous song, as if they are comparing the Steve Miller character singing The Joker to the character from Enter Maurice. In the lyric itself, Miller's character says some people call him Maurice (a different character) because he (also) speaks of the pompatus of love (something that is impossible). So, "some people" are call this new character not named Maurice by the name Maurice because of his similarities to the character from the Enter Maurice song (the only similarity being that he speaks of a concept he cannot possibly speak of because it doesn't exist). But here's where it falls apart for me. Nobody would call someone Maurice for simply using the same word. If I go up to someone and say "pompatus of love", they aren't going to call me Maurice. Yet that is the only reason Miller gives for people calling this character from The Joker by the name of the previous character form Enter Maurice - the fact that they use the same word that doesn't mean anything (they can't speak "of" it because it is impossible to speak "of" a concept that has no concept). It only makes sense in the sense that Miller is refering to a previous song that used the same word. It doesn't make sense on a character level - that of playing a part. Nor does it makes sense on a literal level. Just because he refers back to a previous song (several previous songs) doesn't mean that the statement itself makes any sense because it doesn't mean anything. It cannot make sense. It didn't make sense in Enter Maurice. And it makes even less sense in The Joker because people wouldn't call the character from The Joker by the name Maurice because he can't possibly do what the line says is the reason they call him Maurice (they call him Maurice because he speaks of the pompatus of love, but he cannot speak of the pompatus of love because there is no such thing. Therefore, there wouldn't be anyone calling him Maurice. The character of Maurice from the previous song also could not speak of the pompatus of love, but the line can possibly make sense because he's merely asking a person to to come closer so he can speak of the pompatus of love. He doesn't actually claim that he does speak of the nonexistant concept of the pompatus of love.) ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
If I said "say" it would make more sense. To speak of is to expound on the concept. To speak might imply that it's a kind of language (I speak German, for example). If I say that I said "The Pompatus of Love", then it would make more sense (though I still doubt that people would call him by the previous character's name simply because he said a phrase even though that previous character used the same phrase. No one would call me Maurice if I said that phrase yet that is the only reason the character from The Joker gives for people calling him by a that name). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com [This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited June 12, 2001).]
Why do I suddenly feel like I'm trapped in a Quentin Tarrantino movie? ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
The first three lines in "The Joker" reference older Miller songs. One line from "The Joker": "People might call me the Space Cowboy". This line references the song "Space Cowboy". Another line from "The Joker": "Some call me the gangster of love". This line references the song "Gangster of Love". Another line from "The Joker": Some people call me Maurice \ 'Cause I speak of the pompitous of love. This line references the song "Enter Maurice". "Enter Maurice" contains the lyric "the pompitous of love". You see what Miller is doing here, yes? No problem. OK Miller could have said "People call me Maurice, because I wrote a song called 'Enter Maurice'." But that's not a good lyric. So he says "People call me Maurice because I speak of", then proceeds to quote lyrics from "Enter Maurice". Sounds better. A good lyric. The third line refencing an older Miller song.
Isn't it great? I started this off just wondering how long we could possibly argue about something so inane. Apparently we can argue forever about nothing.
I see what he is doing. I understand what he was going for (and always have). The fact that people call him the Space Cowboy or the Gangster of Love gives me no problem. But when he gets to giving a reason that cannot possibly be true for why people call him Maurice, it falls apart. If he did say that people call him Maurice because he wrote the previous song (or just said that people call him Maurice without giving a reason. I'd even let the idea that people call him that because he says "pompatus of love" slide by as making sense), then that would make sense. But to say that people call him Maurice because he speaks of something he cannot possibly speak of does not make sense because it couldn't possibly be true, even within the reality that Miller has set-up for his song. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
Oh, and I didn't say the line was nonsense. I said the line doesn't make sense (there is a difference). I said the word "pompatus" was nonsense, which is also what Steve Miller said it was. ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
Your whole argument hinges on your "speak" versus "speak on" distinction, which I don't buy. This is fine right? "People call me Maurice, because I wrote a song called 'Enter Maurice'." So, when he uses a little poetic license, and says "because I speak of the pompatous of love", it just makes it a beter lyric.
See? We can get just as riled up about "The Joker" as abortion, gun control, the greenhouse effect [This message has been edited by jamcracker (edited June 12, 2001).]
http://www.gangster-of-love.com/pompitous.html ------------------ One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.
Of course it's a better lyric, but he gave up logic in order to create a better lyric. But if we're down to the difference between speak and speak of as the only argument, then I guess we can actually stop arguing as we're never going to get to the bottom of that. (But I would like to see it when someone asks you to speak of your summer vacation, and you simply say "my summer vacation" because that's what you think they were asking you to do. By the same token, when my grandmother asks me not to speak of my cousin again, I'm just not going to say the name, but will continue to speak about my cousin because apparently, all she wants me to do is to stop saying my cousin's name). If the line from The Joker was "Some people call me Frank because I speak of daffodils" would you then say that people call him Frank because he says the word "Daffodils"? Or would you think that people call him Frank because he speaks about daffodils? (And I know the line makes no sense on its own, so let's assume this person has previously written a song that says "Frank likes to talk about Daffodils" in it). Or would it be a Steve Miller explanation that people call him Frank because he wrote a song that said "Frank likes to talk about Daffodils" which would mean that the "some people call me Frank...." line would have no internal logic at all (i.e. it doesn't make sense on its own, one has to know of the previous lyric). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
I would if he'd previously written a song called "Enter Frank", and "Enter Frank" was written in first person and contained a reference to daffodils. See the difference?
So then anyone who said the word Daffodils would be expected to be called Frank because of the previous reference (since the character from The Joker is not Maurice - the character from Enter Maurice - he's someone who is called Maurice because he said the same word as Maurice). So since we've said pompatus of love, we should expect some people to call us Maurice? (based solely on the first song, of course). ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
Not just anybody who uses the word pompatus can be called Maurice, just Steve Miller, who actually wrote "Enter Maurice". You're making an interesting argument about the character in "The Joker" being distinct from the character in "Enter Maurice". I think Steve Miller was referring to himself in "The Joker" (and maybe in "Enter Maurice" too). I don't think Miller is sophisticated enough to develop full characters for each song.
Maybe if I had actually heard the song "Enter Maurice" it would make a difference, but from what I know of it, he's singing in character - a character that is named Maurice. In The Joker, he's clearly talking about himself - a person not named Maurice. So for people to call him Maurice, they'd have to have a reason to do so. Miller cites the fact that they both speak of the pompatus of love as the reason why some people call Steve Miller by a name that is not his own. (And since that is the sole reason given, the simple act of speaking of the "pompatus of love", ignoring the meaning of "speak of", should be enough to cause "some people" to call someone else by the name of the character from the song Enter Maurice. The fact that Steve Miller wrote both songs is not given as a reason within The Joker. So we can't say that there are additional reasons beyond the reason given by Steve Miller as to why people call him by the name Maurice. If we require that extra bit to be part of the reason some people call him Maurice, then the line in and of itself doesn't make sense because we're saying that people don't call him Maurice for speaking of the pompatus of love. We're saying people call him Maurice because he wrote a different song called Enter Maurice that had a character that used that phrase. So the phrase then only makes sense because we say Miller is saying something different than what he's saying. But that's giving him a benefit that we don't give other people. If I say that people call me Frank, Jr because my Dad had the same name I do, then you'd expect the explanation given to be accurate. That explanation can only make sense, though, if that is really why people call me Frank, jr. But if you later found out that people call me Frank, Jr for an entirely different reason and found out that neither I, nor my father, were named Frank, my original explanation wouldn't make any sense. You'd have to "know what I meant" even if what I meant was entirely different than what I told you.) ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com [This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited June 12, 2001).] [This message has been edited by mrpaige (edited June 12, 2001).]
I'd say Miller cites that fact that he wrote "Enter Maurice" in first person as the reason people might call him Maurice. Instead of referring to "Enter Maurice" by name, he quotes the lyrics. Miller might be called Maurice because he wrote a song called "Enter Maurice" in the first person.
By the way, I wrote to one of those online grammar sites about the phrase "speak of" (using the specific example from The Joker), and they wrote me back to say that "speak of" is synomous with "speak about" and not simply the same as "speak" or "say". ------------------ Houston Sports Board Film Dallas.com AntiBud.com
