What Taiwan Wants!

touche. of course you know i was talking about china's open threat to tawain. "if you try to secede, then we will attack you"

 

Do you know that the United States do not support the Taiwan independance and Francis opposes Taiwan independance?

 

I know I said I wasn't going to debate you anymore but this was too (uninententionally) funny to pass up.

So now Steve Francis opposes Taiwan independence. It must be because those dam Taiwanese are trying to force a rift between him and Yao Ming and the rest of the Red Rockets. Those splittest are trying to get him traded when as he himself said "I'm just like Yao Ming. We are both Chinese and belong together."



I'm guessing you mean France but I couldn't resist. Nothing personal.

 

The content of brainwashing can be passed down through parental education and propaganda circulation, IMO that's how some Taiwanese like you got this idea of the glorious old days under Japanese imperialists who killed millions of Asians and Americans.

You call admiting your nationality and ancestry as brainwashing?

Do you know that Taiwanese mainly refers to one dialect in mainland China, also known as Min? or that the KMT did not exercise cultural discrimination in mainland, where the people speak the same Min.

Discriminating against Taiwanese dialect was what the Japanese did to you guys back in their reigning, and you seem to not have a problem with that. In fact, you appreicate what Japan did in Taiwan. It's OK for Japanese to discriminate against you because they built some infrastuctures(schools and hospitals, big FREAKING deal), and it's not OK, when the KMT from China supposedly discriminate against you, when they led you to a modern life.

it would seem more appropriate if you substitue "the mainlanders" as "the progressive and benevolent japanese imperialists that ruled Taiwan".

And you can't deny that some Min speakers were hooligans, good-for-nothing gansters, or betel-not chewing truck driver that were reported by the press, only you choose to portray that as one sided report against Min speakers, while the press also talks about hooligans, good-for-nothing gansters, or betel-not chewing truck driver from the mainland following the KMT.

Did it happen when their Japanese worshipping parents tell them to hate and hurl insults at their fellow Chinese?

I don't think some schools in Taiwan were reserved only for the mainlanders. Only you can argue that some of the best schools have more concentration of the mainlanders.

You tried to paint a picture that the KMT has adopted discriminative policies against Taiwanese dialect speaker, and promoted it in the press in the last several decades, but your allegations lacks punch because many Taiwanese dialect speakers supports the KMT until today.

Taiwanese that came before 1945 consists of the majority of Taiwan's population, and the fact is they enjoy the highest living standard in Taiwan, which signifies a high degree of education, and because of their wealth and large numbers, they have the greatest influence on economic and political issues. The KMT received 55% of votes in the 1996 elections and the DPP, known as the representative of Taiwanese pre 1945 only received 30%, despite the majority of eligible voters are Taiwanese pre 1945. The Taiwanese dialect speakers don't seem to harbor resentment towards the KMT overall.

Not surprising when your liberal democratic mindset is extreme self-determination that basically spells "rich and democratic people can screw poor people under dictatorship because democracy is sacred and our will is righteous all the way because we can express it."

Chinese love to buy Japanese, the US, the Western products and watch movies or TV programs from these countries, and they have an affinity towards the human rights and democratic conditions in the said countries. Distaste at the US pentagon calling China a threat and the Japanese worshipping war criminals? Yes, irrational xenophobic resentment? Hell no. Feelings of Chinese for Japan and the US are often very mixed in the same person. On one side they like them, on other side they don't.

Anyway, it's funny to hear that from you complaining about Chinese xenophobia while your Taiwanese separatists deter trade and marriage between mainland and Taiwan with various policies.

Some Chinese do have materialistic tendencies, but I don't think you can make a case that Chinese Taiwanese, Japanese or Americans are better in that regard.

Excuse me, but when you have the nationalism complex without a nation to begin with you've no right to complain about other's.

So what's the true content of Chinese culture that worths to be appreciated by you?

Considering democracy as sacred and can't do no wrong is the mentality of scoundrels who abuses democracy as a loincloth to cover up and promote their despicable self and objectives. "We have sacred democracy, we are noble and sacred."

And way to go when Taiwanese like you complaining about Chinese on not regarding democracy as sacred when your senators fight like punks and pollute it with black campaign money.

Pardon my harsh words, I think you guys often get too full of yourselves.

Speaking from the great open minded lil who uses personal insults against Chinese such as "vicious attack dogs and self righteous loudmouth." when he is defied in a political debate.Self-inflation while being rich and democratic.

Do you realize that you are just not being fair towards Chinese?

Biased bigots that happened to live in a more developed region like to think there is more nationalism, materialism, and xenophobia in less developed countries. Sorry, there ain't no Lewinsky making big money off sucking a married man's dick and Japanese denying their WWII sins and racial segregation in America in China. There is also ain't no disgusting Japan colonial reigning complex among the Taiwanese separatists among Chinese.

Meanwhile more and more Taiwanese want to live in China.

Tell that to the Taiwanese that's making big money and living a good life in China, oh and the thousands of Americans, Germans, Frenches who likes to live there.

And tell that to America and France that oppose your so called nationalism (when you don't have a nation to begin with).

When I have a magnifying glass on Japan Imperialists contributions and a eye mask on their atrocities in Taiwan, I'll probably get the meaning of your open-mindedness. When I fail to compare the wrong and good from Japan and China bestowed on Taiwan, respectively, I'll understand too.

It seems the definition of progressiveness and saints in your democratic mind is to murder culture, banng your language, rape woman, kill and loot the Taiwan aborigines, exploit people, treat Taiwanese as secondary citizens while building some schools, roads and hospitals. You can argue that the KMT did the same thing as the Japanese, but it's funny that you don't describe the KMT ruling as progressive despite the KMT led you to modern life and democracy, while the contribution of Japan colonial reigning to Taiwan doesn't come up to 1/10 of the KMT's. Despite your glaring double standard, you still refuse to believe that you are affected by the Japanese anti-China brainwashing passed down from your Separatism predecessors.

Yes I got it. The Taiwanese were blind men and the Japanese imperialists that launced WWII is the one-eyed king. Your affinity to Japan imperialism seems to run higher than your regional pride.

Taiwanese could unlock the doors during the day under Japanese imperialism colonial reigning? That's a new one. How about going back to the Japanese colonial reigning because even under democracy there is not one country in the world whose people can unlock the doors during the day. Seriously, how much of the materials propagated by the Taiwan separatists do you think is true?

LOL, your believing such a lie is the evidence of Japan worshipping brainwashing. Dude, you are killing your credibility in exchange for rhetoric effects.

The educated Taiwanese meaning those in power during Japan's occupation? Meanwhile, Mainland born Taiwanese were also sent to jail by the KMT for being dissidents,and they also promoted democracy, but you seem not willing to point it out.

No, as said above, Taiwanese pre 1945 are the majority of the Taiwanese that has the highest living standard and outnumbers Taiwanese afer 1945. Taiwanese before 1945 are not the underclass in today's society, in fact, they are the most influential group.

You want to thank Japan's Imperialism colonial reigning when you think democracy and human rights are sacred? As I said, the more your read those separatism propanda and believe it, the more confused your mind gets.

I just want to be in constant amazement when I look at a Frankenstain mind sewed up with dictating colonialism worship, democracy worship, double standard, and bigotry. Thanks for the entertainment dude.

I'm describing a regime like China's that's backward but going to the right direction, and I'll point out that Taiwan separatists are a troublesome baby with one feet caught in the democratic threshold and another feet desperatly struggling to go back to Japanese dictatorship colonial ruling.

You said the CCP didn't recognize their mistakes in the Great Leap Forward and Cultural revolution, and that's not the case.

To maintain consistency, how about you ask Japan to apologize for the atrocities they committed to Taiwanese, if you say Japan doesn't need to because you forgive their atrocities, then the same power of forgiving the CCP without an apology lies in the Chinese hands.

Your point was that Japan neo-militarism is something China brainwashes its people with, while I points out that Japan's constitution that forbidding sending troops abroad under any condition is violated as a recent sign of Japan militarism movement.The consititional crisis is clearly a conflict between pro constitution and anti constition Japanese, as usual, you choose to deny such a fact.

Don't try to shift the topic, two wrongs don't make one right.

That's because the US fight a war against communism, and you are apologizing for Japanese WWII war criminal worshipping.

I don't know if it's right to commemorate some of the Civil War figures as that's American's business - I'd like to hear more on that - but I'm sure the Americans aren't worshipping war criminals. Japan's action is completely different, Japan killed at least 20 million Asians in WWII, raped and molested countless women. Japanese class A war criminals are no better than Hitler and worshipping them is no better than worshipping Hitler. I find it hard for you to draw a comparison between Japanese war criminals and Americans.

I don't think if Americans commemorate the Southern slavists makes Japanese worshipping WWII war criminals correct.

Chinese can't walk to Taiwan and China's navy was utterly destroyed, that's not what I would call selling out Taiwan. After China was forced to cede Taiwan, your Taiwanese ancesters still fought bravely against the Japanese Imperialists that you have a fond memory living under.

The qualities of Taiwan democracy is also built by Mainlanders, not only KMT, but avearge Taiwanese after 1945 to Taiwan. This is something I think you need to think over. And I don't want to be cynical here, but the qualities of Taiwan democracy is probably the worst in the world with rampant fights and name calling in the congress, and pollution of serious black campain money in all parties, something the rest of the world not appreciating.

It's alright lil, I just want to tell you the same attitude towards two-sided issue is natural when talking about grave national issues, I think the Americans supporting the Iraqi war before it's launched is also a case of serious uniformity in opinions.

I can't fault them for that, the Tibet province did get a lot better after it's taken back by China, and falungong is indeed a threat to society. It might not seem like clear cut issues to you, just like David Koresh doesn't seem to be a clear cut issue if an non-American never knew of him. It's more of a clear cut issue after Falun Gong members set themselves on fire in the Tiananmen Square in protest of the banning, Chinese people don't like extreme stuff like this.

Chinese doesn't like the USA's unilateralism, just like the French, and there is a suspicion among them that the USA wants to contain China with the Pentagon calling China a "threat". It's pretty clear cut issue from Chinese's perspective, I mean how can one not dislike being called a "threat". But I don't think Chinese are what you described as anti-America. IMO Chinese, like many europeans, just think the Americans sometimes got too full of themselves, that's all.

Actually I just met a girl two months who think Chen Shui Bien did good to Taiwan, and guess what, she is a Chinese mainlander. A small fraction of Chinese think like you guys do. Chinese being uniform in opinions on the Taiwan issue is quite pleasant. The Chinese want to keep their country as a whole, ask Taiwanese if they want to keep Taiwan as a whole and I'm sure you'll get an uniform answer.

Saying democracy is fundamental in justifying sovereignty and property implies that people under dictatorship have no sovereignty and peoperty rights, exactly a reflection of democratic immoralism "rich and democratic people can screw the rights of the poor under dictatorship." I think this is the biggest problem among Taiwanese separatists.

There should be limits on democracy before it develops to democratic immoralism, and your accusation is largely off in saying that the CCP is authoritarian and cripples democratic institutions in HK, what kind of authoritarian regime carrys out democratic experiments in the villages?

Democracy is a vital tool to achieve more happiness, not an sacred object to be worshipped and then its spirit abused.

President Chen Shui Bien is the one who puts getting into the United Nations above saving people's lives in a medical crisis, and that Times article isn't authoritative.

Sorry I must've missed the part you praised China, and your oppinions in this thread shows the Taiwan separatism is influenced by Japan.

You can feel a sense of indentity, a sense of pride, a sense of community, a love for their own land, culture and their way of life just like a Hong Kongese does. I am a Hong Kong citizen, and I know they don't lack any of the things you mentioned except for a love for independence.

I appreciate this secret very much. As long as Taiwan acknowledge its part of China, I don't give a damn to when it returns. When does Taiwan return depends on when China wins back their hearts is based on the condition that whether or not it will return does not depend on China winning Taiwanese hearts.

 

Yeah I meant France. Thank you for pointing that out.

You said I wanted to disown your ancestry in another post. While we have exchanged some personal slams, I didn't try to disown your Chinese ancestry, I was trying to say "you are just a little pompous fake intellectual." Notice I mistakenly typed a half sentence without a period. It was returning a shot after me being called narrowminded and stuff. Anyway, it's over now, just want to clear things up, and no hard feelings.

And not admitting you by another poster is reasonable to me when you clearly advocates breaking China into three pieces ideologically, with Three Chinas. Maybe you didn't mean it, but it's very grating on the ear. I suppose, when a citizen of a country heard his country being refered to as three countries by another, wouldn't he wonder if he's encountering a renegade or unpatriotic guy? I don't think this instance reflects a "either with or against us" mindset.

 

Actually I talked about principles and limits of democracy and self-determination before, now I will briefly summarise it, to me, democracy is the way to manage one's property, not the way to define one's property, and self determination over a property can only be enacted when all owners of it are present. There is their limitations and conditions to both concept. When their limitations and conditions are being denied both democracy and self determination will be abused.

Rational agreement must be established not on worship and abuse but clear definitions and understandings. If you think democracy is sacred and can do no wrong, then there isn't rational argument to sway you either.

 

The pretenders of rationality for their having a "self-determination" tatoo on their foreheads can't handle the self-determination of 1.3 billion Chinese exercising their rights over their land, while being supported by democratic countries in the world.

Have fun in your graceful retreat, and if one day you change your mind, I'm confident you will feel a lot easier living you life, after all, it's not fun for you to frown everytime while meeting every 1 out of 5 people in this world.

I hope you give some credits to the KMT and other average immigrants from mainland after 1945 for Taiwan's democracy. I'm also sure China will one day do the same if she keeps developing, for it's common for a Chinese inhabited region to shift into democracy along with its economic progress, like what the Taiwan province did.

 

Sigh. Back in the 70's, the Taiwan separatists were just a bunch of clones. I read their articles and magazines and it made me laugh. Now they have grown to be the main trend, kind of sad.

KMT or CCP it doesn't matter. I don't care which party rules China but Chinese people should be united in one country, under one government that represents all Chinese interests. A Chinese should not just bash CCP and KMT all day and try to be separate. The terrible things they did was done by your fellow country man not some foreign people. And it was done by those nasty officials not a common Chinese. A common Chinese should fight for better life, topple those governments and officials if neccasery, not just forget who you are and run away.

Panda thanks for putting such an effort. I read every word of it. The opposition didn't even try to argue the basic point that Taiwan is undisputed territory of China.

Lil sorry you lost your credibility by saying you thank the Japanese.

And people would be out of their minds if they actually vote Chen for he digged such a hole for Taiwan. Even my most die hard separist friends would vote for the blue (they will also play the independent card anyway, but probably not in Chen's stupid way) It's also a naive idea that everything can and should be decided by popular vote.

Throughout Taiwan history, all of the rebellions ( all of them was under the slogan to regain the Ming Dynasty) was put down by an internal struggle. Taiwan is far from united itself enthicly and politically, a millitary separation would be just a desaster like usual.

 

Thanks, Max14. You made a great point that common Chinese should unite,walk shoulder by shoulder and clear the obstacles in their way towards happiness instead of running away.

The reason I put forth such an effort is that sometimes I walk in a street I look at those poor Chinese working hard to make their ends meet, while their rights being suppressed by their government, yet further being deprived by their self-righteous demoratic country men, who deny it with such an sense of superiority. It just makes me sick.

I hope the blue(KMT) wins this election, but if they don't, it's not the end of the world. However, I'm sure that's against the interests of Taiwanese for that clown Chen Shui Bien is proven to be nothing but a salespeech maker.

 

I'm sorry, I know I've asked before but I haven't gotten an answer.

If Taiwan belongs to China proper because it has historicaly more often than not been a part of China, and many of the people share a common ethnic and cultural heritage...

How do you justify China's claim to Tibet and Xinjiang, both of which have little to no common ethnic or cultural heritage with China proper, and prior to being invaded by the PRC was part of China during the Quin Dinasty in much the same way that Manchuria was part of the Nipponese Empire in the first half of the 20th century?

 

How do you justify incorporating the Native Indians?

And where is the Nipponese Empire now?

 

Lil:

The site you gave consists nothing but seperatism propaganda that has no any credibility.

It talks about Taiwanese justification for independance in http://www.taiwandc.org/hst-1624.htm#1947:
---------------------------
The San Francisco Peace Treaty

"In 1951-52 the Allied Powers and Japan formally concluded World War II by concluding the San Francisco Peace Treaty. That Treaty is important for Taiwan, because it decided that Japan gave up sovereignty over Taiwan, but it was not determined who was the beneficiary: it was concluded that "...the future status of Taiwan will be decided in accord with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations." "

The Charter of the UN contains article 1.2 which states that it is a purpose of the UN "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples..." The formal result of the San Francisco Peace Treaty is thus that the people of Taiwan should determine the future status of the island based on the principle of self-determination. This Treaty is thus the first, and the last, international treaty of the 20th Century which deals with the status of Taiwan. "
------------------------
First of all, article 1.2 is for developing friendly relations between nations., not about a region's independance.

But that's not just it.

In fact, it's ignored and denied by this propaganda material that Republic of China wasn't present in the San Francisco Peace Treaty Japan signed with the Allies, and ROC signed Treaty of Peace with Japan in 1952 regarding the status of Taiwan.

Here is parts of Treaty of Peace:
-------------------
"Article 4

It is recognised that all treaties, conventions, and agreements concluded before 9 December 1941 between Japan and China have become null and void as a consequence of the war."
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This means that China giving up sovereignty over Taiwan to Japan in treaty signed back in the Qing is void and ineffective.
-----------------
"Article 10

For the purposes of the present Treaty, nationals of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all the inhabitants and former inhabitants of Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores) and their descendents who are of the Chinese nationality in accordance with the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores); and juridical persons of the Republic of China shall be deemed to include all those registered under the laws and regulations which have been or may hereafter be enforced by the Republic of China in Taiwan (Formosa) and Penghu (the Pescadores)."
-----------------
This recognizes ROC's sovereignty overTaiwan.

As for the basis of Japan's right to sign treaty involving Taiwan with ROC. The San Franciso Peace treaty says:
-----------------------------
"Article 2

(b) Japan renounces all right, title and claim to Formosa and the Pescadores.

Article 4

(a) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (b) of this Article, the disposition of property of Japan and of its nationals in the areas referred to in Article 2, and their claims, including debts, against the authorities presently administering such areas and the residents (including juridical persons) thereof, and the disposition in Japan of property of such authorities and residents, and of claims, including debts, of such authorities and residents against Japan and its nationals, shall be the subject of special arrangements between Japan and such authorities."
------------------


It's apparent that the Taiwan separatists will go any length to ignore, deny and distort history to advocate Taiwan independance, beware of their lies. It seems you are being "educated" by them.

 

I don't think anyone does justify that. There have been a lot of apologies made over that one.

 

Oh yeah, I found something suspicious again in the above quoted paragragh from that pro-Taiwan separatism site:

'The San Francisco Peace Treaty

"In 1951-52 the Allied Powers and Japan formally concluded World War II by concluding the San Francisco Peace Treaty. That Treaty is important for Taiwan, because it decided that Japan gave up sovereignty over Taiwan, but it was not determined who was the beneficiary: it was concluded that "...the future status of Taiwan will be decided in accord with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations." "

The part in bold is something that I didn't find in the San Francisco Peace Treaty.

 

This is the Chinese version of manifest destiny. The 13 colonies didn't stop heading west until we bumped into Japan's Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. The Chinese didn't stop west until bumping into the Indians, Persians and Russians. Both Xinjiang and Tibet were dominated by the Chinese empires due to their weakness and close proximity. I'm sure if the African countries were right next to the European powers, they would still be part of their empires today.

I think the Han Chinese were in Xinjiang to control the trade routes with Europe, and the nomad muslim population migrated there from the Middle East. And in Tibet, the Yuan-Ming-Qing empires have been their boss for a long time. So a case can be made either way. But the reality is that they were so powerless that if China didn't absorb them, India, Britian, or Russia would have. If the Chinese treated the Tibetans and Muslims the same way how we treated the Native Indians, we probably wouldn't be hearing their grevances.

 

After most of the native Indians got killed and their land taken, what is the use of apologies?

Tibet became part of China 700 years. If China should give up Tibet, then most of people in the U.S., Canada, and Australia should move out.

One big difference between the treatment of native Indians and Tibetans is that the Tibetan population had grown after the Chinese takeover. That is why we still have a problem. Killing them all and apologize later is a much simpler but a very bad solution.

The U.S. always do whatever is needed to grab or protect their interests and apologize later to show their high moral standard. For example, there was a law prohibiting the Chinese to immigrate to the U.S. until WWII. The American government has apologized for that. However, do you think the government would have done it differently if today's politicians were in control at that time? Without that law, Chinese could become the majority in this country. This is against the fundamental interests of European American. I don't think there was anyway the Europen Americans would allow that to happen even today. But they will apologize to show that they are morally superior today. I am pretty sure a few decades later U.S. will apologize for the invasion of Iraq and the treatments of the detainese in Cuba.

The most important thing is what you do now. If the U.S. pulls out of Iraq now and pays hundreds of billions of dollars to Iraq for war compensations, I will say the U.S. has a high moral standard.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against U.S. protecting its own interests and make this country safer because I live and work in this country. Without protecting the oil supply, I am out of work. The thing I cannot accept is that the U.S. always consider itself morally superior than other developing countries. Maybe the Taiwanese agree with that because they consider you as their dady. But I disagree.

 

The amount of chauvinism here is unbelievable.

Just because the people are Taiwan are ethnically Chinese doesn't mean they automatically want join the mainland anymore than ethnic Chinese in Singapore or the US want to join the mainland. Or a better example the majority of Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders are ethnically English yet few of them would want to go back to where their countries were part of the UK.

The 1.2 Bil Chinese on the mainland may desparately want Taiwan to join them but its not up to them unless they are prepared to invade and kill many of the people in Taiwan. The decision to reunify is up to the people living in Taiwan to decide that and so far the answer has been no.

 

That is reality. The right future for Taiwan is to accept the one China policy while maintaining your own identity. To gain some short term interests at China's expense is not an option. Traitors won't get true respects anywhere in the world.

To constantly criticize the U.S. foreign policy is not an option either. I only criticize the U.S. when somebody criticize China for doing something that U.S. is much better at.