Hong Kong is an autonomous region within China. Hong Kong is part of China. No matter how different is Hong Kong from China, whatever systems Hong Kong has are also part of China. Can an IBM subsidiary be described as be another IBM because the IMB chooses to let it operate on its own? One element of a set can not be said to be the set. Hong Kong is an element of the set China. Hong Kong is therefore not to be said as one China. To say so while knowing HK is part of China indicates a lack of understanding in the set concept. The concept of a set and its elements is one of the most basic concept of human beings dealing with lives. It's the foundation of classification and intelligence. The lack of it will invariably lead to a confused mind and renders it incredible.The 3 Chinas is a term that's coined to ideologically seperate China void of the set concept, and a very sloppy one. Whoever that knows Hong Kong is part of China that falls for it is fudamentally unsound in intelligence IMO. Sorry, it might be hard for you to take, but it's true. You have repeatedly tried to analyse my mindset and intelligence with some out of context quotes and negative results, and now I return the favor to you. You are just repeating what you've said. The Taiwan province was one of the province of the Republic of China. The PRC is the universally acknowledged succession of the Republic of China, which is why PRC took over the ROC's seat in the United Nations. The Republic of China as a country is dead and now is only a regional government in China which refuse to accept the fact that it has been replaced by PRC. Therefore, the current confrontation is the continuation of China's civil war and the Taiwan province is an universally acknowledge part of China. Let's establish that first. Since you acknowledge that the Taiwan province doesn't try to claim all of China currently, and that the Confederacy didn't lay claim to all of the US, that's an exact similarity between China's reunifcation and the American Civil war. You keep mentioning the KMT lays claim to all China, but you omitted that the KMT isn't the ruling party of Taiwan right now, just like another Sishir Chang living the Confederacy as an person not in power but lays claim to all of US. The KMT does not play the same role as the Confederacy for it's not a regime, it's just an out of power party. It's clear that your argument has confused the KMT, an out of power party, with the regime of Confederacy. Again, misconception in classification.
It's funny that you believe Chinese can be brainwashed by the government but find it hard to believe that Japanese imperialists can brainwash Chinese Taiwanese. BTW, there was Taiwanese that gained stature and power by helping the Japanese reign, and whose stature was taken away when China taking back the Taiwan province. They harbored a resentment towards China for their loss of power.
I think the American Civil War and Chinese Civil War is different from the war between the USA and British empire. The America was British's colony, the confederacy and the Taiwan province is formal part of the USA and China, respectively. Good for you guys, you made a good decision keeping Texas, and for that we have the Rockets. Maybe that's because you are not in Chinese' shoes. Glad that you aren't in my shoes.
Nah, if I'm reglious about the completeness of China, I wouldn't support Taiwan's independance if China breaches one-country and two systems after its return, which I don't think the government will.
agree... not unlike manifest destiny in early US history. i just feel that this is a topic that americans shouldn't make value judgements upon. it's like blasting the chinese for human rights when a few decades ago there was a little something called segregation right here in america.
How could the DPP today and most of their supporters be brainwashed by Japan when they've NEVER lived under Japanese rule??? I never said in my post that I believed you guys were all brainwashed. it is just an opinion which is widely shared by not just many taiwanese, but people around the world. and since you so gleefully raised your hand in denying what was never accused of you, i'll play along. You DO realise that China is an authoritarian dictatorship that censors just about anything against govt policy and puts dissidents in "reeducation camps", right? That even today never admits the Cultural Revolution or the Great Leap Forward were disasters that set back a great civilisation decades and starved hundreds of millions. That somehow gets a vast majority of its people to buy into this "japanese neo-imperialism" bull**** when japan hadn't fought a single engagement or even sent its troops abroad for 60 years. So pardon me if I believe in Chinese communist brainwashing. When one day i can meet 10 chinese men that can discuss world affairs or even their own history with an ounce of reflection or liberal democratic sentiment, then i'll change my opinion. in my days here in cambridge i've met ONE out of more than 50 Chinese who's been like that. 98%? And they're pretty much the greatest minds from your country too. I'd call it a pretty good sign of brainwashing. When the KMT took over Taiwan, they put their mainlander henchmen in power. Today, Taiwanese are taking the power back. Ain't nothing to do with the Japanese. It's call DEMOCRACY, a concept you really ought to learn more about. And even if we do have anything to do with the japanese, that's our ******* business. If we want to become a Japanese province or a US state or stay independent, it's our choice, and our choice alone. hell, right now, japan looks like a heck of a better option than being ruled by authoritarian cretins which even today flatly denies any wrongdoing for butchering helpless patriotic students with dum-dum bullets and sees nothing wrong in pointing 496 missiles at a peaceful neighbor or blocking critical medical assistance during a global epidemic... I'll say it again, just take a look in the ******* mirror.
a point of reference, Lil, if you don't mind me asking. tell me a bit of your background. country of birth / ancestry?
I said the Japanese imperialists brainwashed the Taiwanese back in their occupation. Although most of the Taiwan seperatists today haven't lived under Japanese rule, their mindset is passed down from their predecessors who lived under Japanese reigning. Heck, even today there is remnants of Neo Nazis in Germany and neo-militarists in Japan, the basic Taiwan separatists' mindset is a follow up of the Japanese brainwashing that portrayed Chinese as inferior race. Not every separatists are bigots towards Chinese but many of them are. Once you acknowledged that your friends hate Chinese with uncontrollable rage. And your current vice president flying to Japan to thank for their imperial colonial reigning indicates not only anti-China sentiment, but also Japanese nostalgia that forgot being treated as secondary citizens, a sure sign of Japanese brainwashing. People living in the free world often has this view that they can't be brainwashed by the media or government, the fact is they do, although less than that in China. Brainwashing does not need dictatorship to occur, when the same lie is repeated a thousand times it becomes the truth. And it can happen to you! Your views are outdated, China is a dictatorship with civil rights suppression but also open to mild and gradual reform to better those areas. China is planning to write human rights protection clause into the constitution for the first time, making regulations that protect journalistic rights, allowing open promotion of democratic improvement in the newspapers and carrying direct elections in the villages. I wouldn't call that authoritarian. I don't know where did you get that idea, the cultural revolution or the Great Leap are admitted as grave mistakes. Many people who were wrongly punished in the cultural revolution have been compensated. Well, Lil, I've written to you many times before on the signs of japanese neo-imperialism or neo-militarism in recent years, but haven't seen any response from you. And you are a little out of touch with news, Japan has just sent its army to Iraq, which is in contradiction of its constitution after WWII, that banned sending armies overseas. How do you explain that the Japanese prime minister repeatedly went to worship the temple that has enshrined class A Japanese war criminals in WWII? How do you explain that files of old Japanese soldiers marching in WWII uniforms outside the temple? You can refuse to believe when you don't want to, how can the motherland Japan do anything wrong? Maybe the reason for your impression is because your version of history is not reliable in the first place, you thought China sold out Taiwan to Japan, but the fact was Japan took it from China with force. I think many Chinese knows about democracy, gosh, how can it be? Well, not so hard to understand if you can acknowledge that there was people who knows about the pros and cons of democracy in Taiwan back in the 70's under dictatorship, by studying it. There is plenty of books, some written by foreigners, on the pros and cons of democracy on the bookshelf in Chinese bookstores. And trying to painting Chinese of having no ounce of reflection on history or liberal democratic sentiment is just off, but I can understand from this point of view, that since Chinese live under dictatorship, then their oppinion must be inferior to others. They must lose the ability to reflect on history and has no liberal democratic sentiment. Maybe sometimes it's true, but that's not always the case with China. There is people in China getting brainwashed, but I'm not sure how many. Most Chinese I encountered have critical thinking towards the government, and they criticize or bash the government pretty hard, on the internet, and in the newspaper, although in a milder and sometime indirect manner. China is against the USA invading Iraq, but I've read an article that praises the USA for that in the Chinese newspaper. Criticism is often allowed except for some super sensitive issues. Just a sidenote. If there is a superiority complex in your mind, certainly every Chinese would seem to be idiots without intelligence. If you use your thinking as the ultimate standard to gauge others you will find only the minority who agrees with you as being able to reflect on history, and having liberal democratic sentiment. Does that one out of more than 50 Chinese happen to agree with Taiwan independance? I mean since when does a bigotry racist acknowledge that black guys are smart. Not to say it's you, just to make a point. I hope that you can visit China one day and witness the changes without a biased view. You asked me about my view on the rights of democracy and self-determination and I have replied honestly in another thread, pointing out some of its ramifications and limitations, and why it can't be employed sometimes. No reply to me from you. And now you are throwing out the "democracy supercedes property rights" out again to justify your position as if my posts never occured. Talking to you is like talking to a deaf guy who turns off his hearing when I speak then repeat the same thing after I finished. You are just one step away from saying Taiwan should be part of Japan compared to China, your inclination towards Japan shows your desire of an independant country is secondary when it comes to avoiding China. Maybe you have your justification doing so, when Taiwan failed to sneak into the United Nations WHO by requesting being a member of it during the SARS crisis, despite the fact that you can get assistance without raising the issue, and is interpretated by you China haters as Chinese blocking critical medical assistance to you. Ignoring Japanese' atrocities in worshipping war criminals, and magnifying China's seemingly wrongdoing is common practice among Taiwan separatists. Pro-Japan and anti-China seems to be a common trait among them. How can Japan do wrong and China do right? Actually I find you are more close minded than average Chinese without any ability to examine your position but to fall for anti-China propaganda, don't let the China hate blind you. I'm almost sure next time you will pretend none of my words are heard and throw out the same ole same ole again in another thread.
LOL. You are probably right. It's kind of weird that I can write concisely in Chinese but not in English. Maybe my command of it is not good enough.
hold on here. this is interesting. so brainwashing is hereditary? i simply don't know where you get this stuff. but i'll let you know this, the vast majority of modern Taiwanese have been brainwashed before by an authoritarian regime, but it was by the mainlanders' KMT. We were told we were Chinese, told to love China and Chinese people as our own, told to feel that being Taiwanese and speaking Taiwanese is inferior, told that the mainlanders ruled over us because they were indeed more capable, more honorable, more refined/cultured, or simply more intelligent while Taiwanese speakers in the popular press were portrayed as hooligans, good-for-nothing gangsters, or betel-nut chewing truck drivers. Kids speaking Taiwanese were fined at school (in the early days Taiwanese kids couldn't even attend the best public schools - they were reserved for mainlanders). Ask any Taiwanese over 25 today, whether this is true. If there are some of us who grew up and felt superior to Chinese instead, it is likely because they MET SOME Chinese. and came to the same realisation I did. that collectively, too many of them lack a liberal democratic mindset, too many of them harbor an irrational xenophobic resentment of japan, US, and the Western "neo-imperialism", too many of them have become rapacious materialists who apparently never had an education which balanced greed with decency or fairness, too many of them have developed an irrational chinese ultra-nationalist bravado without really being able to appreciate the true content of chinese culture, too many of them know about human rights and democracy but apparently don't consider them as sacred, too many of them apparently love political debate but cannot tolerate different opinions or when others defy them. i don't claim that these are the exclusive sins of Chinese people. It's just that these are all common in less-developed countries. and when all taiwanese people experience this irrationality or insensitivity first-hand (whether meeting chinese abroad or esp. when your govt blocks humanitarian aid during our natural disasters or shoots missiles at us), it's a pretty big disappointment. our textbooks told us you guys were innocent and pure people suffering under the lash of communists. then we find out that not only do you do little to resist the lash, but you happily join your oppressors in hurting others. the very fact that you simply CANNOT COMPREHEND how Taiwan can appreciate what Japan did on Taiwan, is a sign of your close-mindedness. Japan had in Taiwan what was arguably the most progressive colonial administrations in the entire world. and in comparison to the later KMT, they were veritably saints. no one is arguing with you that imperialism was wrong, but in a nation of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. we welcomed the KMT when they came. but when gansters and corruption came with them, when drugs and crime became rampant, when people could no longer keep their doors unlocked during the day, when the educated taiwanese were no longer respected gentry but were instead executed by the tens of thousands, when our economic performance lagged, when the inequity of colonialism were replaced by the hypocrisy of a two-tiered democratic society (and taiwanese were the underclass), you tell me whether it is reasonable for Taiwanese to have nostalgia for the good ol' days. we thanked japan because they did us good when they never had to and when no one else did better. we cursed the KMT because they did us ill when they pretended to be our saviors. no one is condoning what the japanese did elsewhere in Asia (Korea, SE Asia, China, etc.). we're just giving credit where it's due. must the truth be denied? this ain't the first time i'm telling you this. but the fact that you can't begin to understand is not a good sign for you, dude. i never said that china isn't making progress. but you're apologising for a regime that is right now just plain backward. oh look! the baby's starting to walk! the baby's starting to mumble! don't call me out if i'm saying "This is one damn troublesome baby!" yeah right, and Mao is denounced as a criminal. just like Li Peng and your top generals are behind bars for Tiananmen Square.. when one day the CCP officially apologises for the Cultural Revolution, Great Leap Forward, Tiananman Square, Korean War, Tibetan prosecution, corruption, torture of dissidents, etc. etc. etc. then, maybe i'd be proven wrong. that's my point exactly. a country that hadn't sent troops abroad for 60 years. and then had a CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS simply for trying to join a noncombat multilateral peacekeeping action. and then you go accusing them of neo-imperialism???? you really really really might consider getting a mirror. do you mean like the way the Chinese prime minister repeatedly goes to worship at the mausoleum that has enshrined Mao Zedong, responsible for the death of hundreds of millions of Chinese and actively sponsored terrorists in neighboring countries? or do you mean like the way Jiang, Wen, and Hu repeatedly evokes the fond memory of Deng Xiao-Ping who is responsible for Tiananman Square? oh by the way, you might like to know that there are dead japanese soldiers NOT guilty of war crimes in the Yasukuni too. decorated veterans that served with honor and sacrifice, that died for their country. i don't exactly see the US cancelling Veterans Day because of the My Lai massacre either. you really ought to attend a gettysburg reenactment sometimes. the confederate gray actually looks pretty dashing. and just in case you haven't heard, some of those rebels (Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson) actually served honorably and conscientiously, with love for their land and sacrifice for their countrymen. oh wait, they're southern slavists, they must all be scoundrels and war criminals. my bad. china surrendered like a pansy. and to save its own incompetent ass, sold us like so much cattle down the river. japan's imperialism is as much to blame. but from what i recalled in history, there wasn't exactly a 30 year struggle. how about 6 months and 4 battles later, China decided taiwan wasn't worth the trouble. must be the same way that americans know about communism. heck, das kapital is available in a good bookstore near you too. i really shouldn't be facetious or cynical here. but when i see chinese people being able to consistently appreciate the qualities of Taiwanese democracy, like the rest of the world can, maybe i'll change my mind. i'll take that back. i'm sorry. but like you said, when i see so many of you speak with such uniformity and extreme bias on what ought to be controversial, two-sided issues like tibet, falunggong, taiwan, or even japanese neo-imperialism, i can't help but wonder. no. one out of more than 50 chinese acknowledges the fact that taiwan and tibet might be better off without china. one out of more than 50 chinese (non-falunggong members) acknowledges that falunggong might not be a pernicious subversive threat to society. one out of 50 acknowledges that maybe the US ISN'T a bogeyman out to get china and oppress the world. oh, and as for the Taiwan independence issue, your comrades have scored a 100% so far. pretty successful "education" if you ask me. of course on such clear-cut issues who could possibly think otherwise? what's there to say? democracy and self-determination ARE the fundamental institutions and rights that JUSTIFY and LEGITIMISES sovereighty and property. china says "there needs to be limits on democracy" when they impose an authoritarian regime in china and cripples democratic institutions in Hong Kong. china says "there are times when self-determination is not possible" and then they go conquer Tibet and force the Taiwanese people to live under the eternal shadow of armageddon. besides being masters of understatement, have you ever felt that maybe the CCP might need to show that they appreciate concepts like democracy/self-determination a bit more before discussing limits on them? have you read the Times article which began this thread? we must be a WHOLE NATION of "China haters" if you're using "feeling incensed at WHO/SARS obstruction" as a benchmark. I've praised China plenty of times on this board not to have to be subjected to your "jap running dog" smearing, which by the way, is a trademark of Chinese people trying to discredit Taiwanese nationalism. What can China do right? Well, for a start, you might admit the fact that Taiwanese people can feel a sense of identity, a sense of pride, a sense of community, a love for their own land, culture, and their way of life, a love for their independence, without having to bring our colonial heritage or US dependence into it. i really appreciate your last sentiment. i'll let you know a secret. i may be an ethnic taiwanese, but i'm a chinese nationalist deep down at heart. and i do support a unified China in the future. but man oh man, China has a lot of work to do, not least of which, they need to educate its own people the right way, and win back a LOT of Taiwanese hearts.
born in Taiwan. Taiwanese ancesters (as far back as can be traced 7-8 generations). ethnic chinese. educated in the States and UK. founder of the taiwanese society here. hey listen, if you don't care much about taiwan's status and rights, maybe you should think twice about posting in this thread. frankly i don't know how politically aware you are, but i feel your remarks are just a tad flippant. as for people hating china, maybe you ought to take a look at some of your own countrymen's brilliant geopolitical/internal policies and military deployments. why does america get hated in the middle east? why do nazis get hated in israel? need you ask?
This the only answer that matters because this shows that reunification is all important to you and that you would support it by any means. There is no reason for us to debate this further because we are not even in the same frame of reference in regards to issues like democracy and self-determination. There is no rational argument that will sway you and previous attempts to do so have been a waste of time.
Lil; As a Chinese American, my mother is from Taiwan but not very political and my father from Hong Kong and supported the reunification of Hong Kong but became very worried after Tianenmen, I haven't been following the Taiwan / Mainland China issue but now I can appreciate the passion it generates on both sides. My own opinion has been that this is a ridiculous issue and that its up to the Taiwanese to decide if they want to reunify and that PRC threats of force were totally counter productive. I can see now from people like Panda that reunification is almost a holy calling and they will use any argument to justify it and any means to achieve it. As someone who grew up in the US and was taught to value self-determination to such an extent that I have even been critical of the US when it has interferred in the affairs of other countries I can't even understand the mindset of people like Panda. OTOH it seems like people like Panda are just as willing to disown my own Chinese heritage since in their eyes I'm a pompous fake and not welcome in the Motherland because I think that since Taiwan is a defacto independent country their is nothing wrong with it continuing that way. I've often hoped that this situation could be resolved peacefully, with either the PRC accepting Taiwan as an independent country or the Taiwanese voluntarily and democratically deciding to join the mainland, but from this debate I'm doubting that will happen. I hope it doesn't because if war breaks out over this issue that will be a disaster for Chinese everywhere.
wanted to say that this statement is excellent. and wanted to add that the CCP threatens war over Taiwan precisely because and only because the CCP decides to, not because of some nationalistic sentiment. case in point, we never see chinese clamoring for mongolia when they just lost it a mere 50 years ago. we never see chinese clamoring for korea or southeast asia either, when they lost these tributary satellites at the same time as taiwan. if there is a nationalistic process behind this anti-taiwan policy, it sure as hell is pretty arbitrary.
Self-determination is something sounds good but never practical, as you have observed that U.S. has interfered in the affairs of other countries. If U.S. had respected the self-determination rights of the native Indians, most of people including you and me could not even live on this land. Taiwan's independence hurts the fundamental interests of the 1.3 billion Chinese people. One reason is because Taiwan has been and is very willing to be an ally of U.S. and Japan in case of a confrontation between China and U.S or Japan. China has to protect its own interests because those are the interests of 1.3 billion people. That is true democracy and true love of humanity. That represent the self-determination of the Chinese people. If Chinese people suffers in terms of loss of lifes or slow down of development, that is one quarter of human beings on this earth suffering. That is a big disaster to humanity. Realizing reality and find true goodness are important but not easy to do. As individuals, we have to accept reallities such as our tax dollars are used in the war against Iraq because we are also beneficiaries of those not so just actions by the U.S. I love the American people and try to do as many good things as possible but refuse to be brain washed. The true American elites understand how their system and media work. They respect the people who have a backbone. People with colonial mind set won't go very far in this country because this is a land for braves. At the best, they may get some praises from the hypocritical politicians or some sympathies from some ladies. Some people in Hong Kong and Taiwan enjoy the colonial days. They enjoy to be second class citizens of the world. They also hope the Chinese people to be the third class citizens of the world so that they can show off. The reality is that China has been one of the most civilized and richest countires in the world for a long long time and she is remerging once again. The Chinese people will determine their own fate because that is true humanity and self-determination for the human kind. I am sure a few decades later, badwagon jumpers like the Taiwan independence promoters will be proud of their Chinese ancestry just as they are proud of being Yao Ming fans. We Chinese will forgive them because that is our nature.
