What Taiwan Wants!

LOL, the showdown of a clown.

Sishir chang: How does it taste when you bite the wrong man's a$$?

 

Why keep making such a dinstinction between Mainlanders and Taiwanese? The majority of Taiwanese originally came from Mainland. They are all Mainland immigrants in the first place. Talking about regionalism mentality.

The KMT government had their faults in dealing with regionalism, but it's not fair to place all the blame on their shoulders. Chang Kei Shek,known as a staunch opposer of Taiwan seperatism, faced a fraction of Taiwanese with Japanese colonial reigning nostalgia and a rigid mindset that looks down on Chinese culture as a result of the Chinese cultural genocide the Japanese conducted. They have a innate anti-China complex. In order to break loose from the Chinese government, they formed into a group that advocates Taiwan being independant from China as the first step to cut off ties with China.

Such trouble makers gains ground by setting up the Natives vs. Mainlanders and Taiwanese vs. Chinese framework, using it to interpret all things and influence other people, while the initial corruption of the KMT added to the dissatisfaction of the Taiwanese.When Chang Kei Shek and KMT silenced the Taiwan seperatism, screened possible seperatists, they played into the hands of the seperatists for each Taiwanese seperatists arrested counts as one instance of Native vs. Mainlanders and Taiwanese vs. Chinese. Being a dictating government suppressing the will of both mainland newcomers and nth generation Taiwanese. The development of Taiwan seperatism is a interwining process with each side at faults at different levels.

As for banning the Taiwanese dialect and considering it inferior, do you mean the KMT banned the daily usage of the Taiwanese dialect or just didn't make it as the official language?

Lee Teng Hui is the prime example of the open mindedness of KMT towards nth generation Taiwanese - A Taiwan born Taiwanese who served in the Japanese army that killed millions of KMT soldiers in WWII was given a chance to be the leader of KMT.

And the choice in terms of plural parties and democracy is also allowed by KMT, through the process of gradually making concessions. The Taiwanese should also give credits to KMT for that. And if one day the Chinese acheived modernization and democracy under the leadership of CCP, then the CCP should also be given credits.

In fact the leaders of Taiwanese seperatists hail the Japanese for building some infrastructure and forget the rape, exploitation and oppression. Lu Xou Lian, the highly ranked official of DDP flew to Japan to thank the Japanese for their colonial reigning in Japan.

Following your point, maybe the black Americans should still dwell in the past and refuse to reconcile for suffering from the slavery, and go for independence against the USA, no?

Yawn the usual slanting the position if one can't argue technique. Well, since I have time now let's play along.

The KMT should be held responsible for their shortcomings, if Taiwanese don't like KMT, they have the democratic right to toss the KMT right now.

And your attempt to paint every Chinese regardless of his background as mindless government drones is pretty weak. Let me ask you a simple question, do you think your beloved Taiwan seperatists
were mindless drones under Chang Kei Shek and KMT's dictatorship ruling? Maybe it's hard for you to understand that some people can have independant thinking and be in contact with outside info under dictatorship ruling at any time, particularly when such a person spends half of his life living abroad and living in the internet age, in which national boundaries are erased.

BTW, the Taiwan seperatists aren't your parents, and even if they were, you don't have to follow their path.

They can enjoy autonomy or keep the status quo until one day they see fit to return for all I care as long as they admit Taiwan is part of China.

BTW, the Chinese Communist Party is as communistic as the Taiwan seperatists. You are just so out if you don't know that communism is dead in China and the only thing communistic in China is the CCP namecard.

Chang was anti Taiwan's independance and it doesn't negate my point that China's reunification has nothing to do with helping dictatorship ruling, just like the democratic USA unite the North and South in the Civil War.

Many overseas Chinese support China's reunification, but you think that the CCP had remote control wired in their brains, right?

The desire of Chinese wanting to see China being united and strong supercedes the form of government under which they live.

The Mainlanders didn't seem to know there were people living in Taiwan? What are you talking about?I don't know which kind of seperatism propaganda you are reading, but China set Taiwan up as a province, had regional government, armies and governer stationed in Taiwan since the Qing dynasty. The way the Taiwan seperatists play is to alienate the Taiwan province and China by distorting history. Beware.

Plz quit beating a dead horse, while there is nationalism among Chinese, the CCP is very cautious to not encourage it so that it won't tie them up and force their hands. The CCP wants to have a good relationship with Japan and USA for those are two of its biggest trading partners and are key to the CCP in its economy performance, which is the most important criteria among Chinese regarding the CCP's rise and fall. You got the whole process reversed, strong nationalism is the worriness of the CCP for it is destructive towards foreign relationship.

This is your response to my protest of your over simplification of Chinese being narrowminded? by asking me more questions? you call that the justification of your oversimplication?

Maybe you don't know that sometimes enemies find you even if you just sit at home. Well, you don't have to be their enemy too, the government deals with their enemies. You only have to be indifferent with how the enemies are dealt. Whatever that means.

You say the CCP is using nationalism and Taiwan as tools to feed the Chinese pride in order to maintain its dictatorship, then you say the CCP chooses to make democratic concessions that weakens its dictatorship in the process of it. Sorry, that just doesn't add up. I smell a glaring contradiction.

If CCP puts dictatorship reigning above defending China's and Chinese' rights, then the best way is to just let Taiwan go, use the seperatism propaganda to brainwash Chinese citizens, such as Three Chinas(mainland, Hk, and Taiwan) blah blah blah... that would save the trouble of making democratic concessions. The CCP isn't using nationalism or Taiwan as a tool to feed the Chinese pride and to maintain its dictatorship reigning. End of discussion.

Keep beating around bushes is good exercise.

Well, following your thoughts you won't know about China either unless you've spent some good time in China. Then can you tell if it's helping dictatorship or excercising the Chinese rights. See, it works both ways.

Some new thoughts of food from the mindless drone to you, it can be both, anti-CCP and anti-Chinese. The Taiwan seperatists flying to Japan to thank for their colonial reigning which practiced Chinese culture genocide is a good indication that the seperatism is anti-Chinese.

You should've known that China tried to take back Taiwan in the 50's but was detered by the Taiwan-American alliance back then, and China was stuck in bad shape under Mao's ruling, making it unable to be in a position for reunification. The average Chinese wouldn't care much about reunfication back then when they could barely feed themselves. It was only in the last 20 years or so that China's economy and navy have made substantial improvement, and the Taiwan seperatism movement rised to new heights since the recent years, which spured the Chinese desire to take back Taiwan.If you have these knowledge then you won't be surprised at the increasing desire of reunification and better effort.

Inaccurate, the CCP is putting themselves in a position of a responsive war by saying war upon the decleration of independance. The CPP guarentee a war under certain condition. Although it's not likely the seperatists won't pull the trigger now, the CCP should know that the seperatists are waiting for their chance, if only China gets tangled in some other difficult issues......

Agreed. For it's the Chinese' reponsibilty to maintain their homeland as a whole, and the CCP must follow this responsibility - and the USA in the civil war addressed the same concerns of dissidents.

The Taiwanese seperatists would like to degrade the will of the Chinese people regardless of facts, making them out to be without innate sense of the responsibilty to maintain their homeland, and that their desire of excercising their acknowledged rights is the sole product of mind manipulation by the ruling party. The purpose of such tactic is to degrade the initiatives of the reunfication effort, making it out to be the effort of assisting dictatorship reigning. Nice strategy on paper, but I don't think it works.

 

And you call those posts calling me biased, low understanding ability, "either friend or enemy" simpleton, mindless drones dancing at the wands of the government dignified response and I should be thankful?

And several posts ago you called me a decent person deep down, and now I'm a vicious attack dog, self-righteous loudmouth. LOL. You see, don't be mad if you failed to sugar coat me.

hm... whatever.

 

Panda;

I was going to write a long post in response but I can see that it will be a waste to time since you don't seem to grasp some of the basic arguments on the other side.

I will ask this question though. If Taiwan decides to declare independence will you support the PRC invading Taiwan to forcefully reunify it?

 

My apologies then. It doesn't matter anyway since Panda made similar statements before.

 

It doesn't matter if you write posts lasting 1 million words, you have zero credibility when yoy think that Hong Kong is one China. Do you seriously think that the Americans and Chinese on this board will believe that crap? People should be pissed at your assumption of their lack of knowledge.

You accusation of me being unable to grasp basic argument is hollow, and your silly inflammatory posts bore me. You have no other resort when you can't argue except for cheating yourself "oh the opposition can't understand my point." while being totally unware of your lack of point in the first place.

When you answered my request on the comparison of Civil War and China's reunification then you can further ask me questions.

 

Yes since I made "similar statements" before so it's OK for you to misquote people deliberately without pointint it out before you get caught, and then trying to wiggle your way out by placing the judgement of "similarity" in your hands.

All you can do if to find odd sentences and twist the context to suit your subtle bashing without the recognition of your inability to carry out intellectual discourse.

Well, this response from another Chinese poster upon seeing a pathetic Chinese trying to pass off Hong Kong as one China is only appropriate.











You are nothing but a little pompous fake

 

MY COMMENTS:


i read some of the back n forth and it seems to be a spar off on whether or not Taiwan wants independence.

from what i gather, they do. and china has been shooting target practice missiles towards Taiwan as a fear tactic to quiet seperatist thoughts.


my girlfriend of 6 years...she is "native taiwanese" so i find it interesting that someone said that its 1.4% cause she always explained it as rare but i had no idea it was 1.4% rare. she's got these little speckles that she explains to her aboriginal mountain people heritage.

anyways, another cool side note is that her dad worked for the taiwanese fbi as a secret agent and his nick was "spike" and when he smoked he smoked that james bond brand of cigarrettes

her mom was siding with bush last election cause bush said he would use military force to defend taiwan in case of an attack by China. She refuses to buy anything thats "made in china" . as far as i know: her mom, dad, and everyone that theyre in contact with back in taiwan...family and friends...THEY FREAKING HATE CHINA!!!! could you blame them? why would you want a communist regime saying "oh we own you and if you try to say you're your own thing then we will bomb you....were pretty close and we wouldnt mind doing so"

 

OH HELLLLL NO. If that happens, the whole world needs to come to Taiwan's aid and kick some communist ass.

 

Panda;

First off I don't know why you keep on bringing this up

When I have never said that Hong Kong is part of one China is one China. In fact if you reread my posts you will see I talk about their being 3 Chinas that are the PRC, Taiwan and Hong Kong recognizing that even though Hong Kong is officially part of the PRC they still have a different economic and cultural system, one country two systems. Anyway I can't take credit for the term "3 Chinas because it is a term used in diplomatic and economic circles.

Since you deny the differences between the US Civil War and the PRC / Taiwan situation I will resummarize them for you:

1. In the US Civil War that was a split between an existing government that legally was unclear under the Constitution. The Confederate states and many Constitutionalists at the time thought it was legal to leave the Union while the Union didn't. The Union was afraid that if the legal precedent had been established that would lead to the ultimate disintegration of the US. The situation between the PRC and Taiwan is that they have always been two separate governments with no legal recognition on either side. While both see each other as the legitimate government of both mainland China and Taiwan neither is in a position to enforce that. In the KMT case this is ridiculous because there is no realistic way that the KMT could ever gain power of mainland China whereas the PRC still has the option of a forceful invasion. Therefore the comparison of the US Civil War is wrong if looking from the KMT perspective because the Confederacy never laid claim to all of the US. This is also a moot point since the DPP has come to power in Taiwan Taiwan's govt no longer lays claim to being the legitimate government of all of China.

2. The closest area where the US Civil War and the Taiwan PRC situation comparable is territorial integrity. This is your strongest argument because the PRC claim that the division of Chinese territory threatens the integrity of all of China. If the PRC drops their claim Tibet, Xizang, and other places will split off and China will fall apart, which is roughly the same argument the Union made in the US Civil War. While this is a good rhetorical argument its basis in fact is highly suspect. The Confederate states made up more than 40% of the US at the time of the Civil War while at the same time their being an unclear legal basis for whether states could leave. Taiwan's size and population are insignificant to the PRC and anyway Taiwan has functioned as an independent country for 55 years without leading to a breakup of the PRC. Since Taiwan's govt and the PRC's govt. don't recognize each other there is no legal basis to argue a precedent that other regions could voluntarily leave the PRC since Taiwan and the PRC were never part of the same govt.

3. One other crucial difference is how Taiwan and the PRC have done as defacto separate countries. Both have made significant economic progress and have substantially reformed politically. Nothing like that happened in regards to the Confederacy and the Union and couldn't happen in the Confederacy until they gave up slavery. If the Confederacy had managed to hold off the Union and then ended up reforming to become a successful democratic nation I would argue that it would be wrong for the Union to forcefully reacquire them.

4. Finally you cannot ignore the issue of slavery in regard to the US Civil War. This issue makes the Union cause a greater moral issue than a mere territorial dispute. There is no such moral underpinning regarding the Taiwan and the PRC. If anything Taiwan can argue they that it would be immoral for them to join the PRC since human rights are worse in the PRC and one country two systems is no guarentee once the Taiwanese give up their ability to defend themselves.

So in short the US Civil War and the Taiwan PRC situation is only comparable in one issues, territorial integrity but completely different in regards to legality, scope and moral underpinning.

I've reanswered your question only to prompt you to answer the last question that I raised to you. This question is really the only question that matters in this debate because that will show whether there is any basis for us to be discussing this issue at all.

If Taiwan were to outright declare itself independent would you support forcible reunification?

 

Panda you are the man. I definitely could not have said that better myself.

 

yeah i don't understand that either... would it really make china better off? but what i don't understand even more are the militantly seperatist people.

 

The aborigines on Taiwan are marginalized by the "foreigners" (old and new). They are treated as tourist attractions and sideshow curiosities. The ironic thing is, the aborigines are treated like the strange foreigners on their own land. They should probably vote for independence from the two Chinas.

 

Are you talking about communist China or United States of America?

 

what the hell are you talking about dude? i couldn't care less about Taiwan joining China. Taiwan joins China... big freakin' deal... China becomes 1% richer... yay! Whatever. I'm not a Chinese citizen, so I can't speak for them, but I'd rather do without the controversy.

I just don't like people who are militantly seperatist. In fact I superhate those people. If they can join, great! I mean same people, same language, that'd be nice. But China taking back Taiwan would be like Rockets resigning Jason Collier. It wouldn't hurt the team, but it would improve it like EPSILON.

So in short... I have tons of Taiwanese friends and I always tell them I have no stance. I guess I just hate the issue altogether. But it bothers me when people are anti-China as it is the country of my birth. I appreciate Panda for putting a good viewpoint out there.

 

So the average taiwanese is better than the average chinese, Lil?
Let's not act like ignorant bigots, taiwanese are not better/smarter than the average Chinese/Amercian/Korean

 

One other crucial difference is how Taiwan and the PRC have done as defacto separate countries. Both have made significant economic progress and have substantially reformed politically. Nothing like that happened in regards to the Confederacy and the Union and couldn't happen in the Confederacy until they gave up slavery. If the Confederacy had managed to hold off the Union and then ended up reforming to become a successful democratic nation I would argue that it would be wrong for the Union to forcefully reacquire them.

This makes a large degree of sense to me. Time is a factor in these sorts of things. Had the Confederacy maintained their separation for fifty years, it would be hard to support a forced reunification, even if the people of the North supported it.

I mean, there's been a lot of countries that were once part of another country. We would never have even entertained the idea of going back to being part of Great Britain in the 1820s. We would never have considered giving Texas back to Mexico in the 1880s. Heck, we would never even think about letting Texas get back its original borders, even if it remained a state, rather than an official country.

It seems to me that the decision has to be made by both parties. If the citizenry of both Taiwan and mainland China want reunification, then so be it. But as long as at least one side isn't for it, then it shouldn't happen.

But this really means so little to me personally.

 

There is a seemingly stupid explaination for the incredible resolution of Chinese people (Note, only only the "evil" communist Chinese goverment) to unify Taiwan. But I think this could givel people from other culture some idea on this issure:

the unification of China, or a completeness of China is like a religious belief for most chinese people. People are taught from born with this and they live and die for it. You cannot argue with people with this, just like Christians and Muslims are not going to argue whether Bible or Koran is more of truth.... these are totally different.... paradigms. As a result, you are not going to persuade chinese people to give up Taiwan, true or false.

Some of you could laugh at this mentality, just like that they never undersand Muslims and their "extreme" belief. Fortunately that 1.3 billion people is not that violent.

This is one littlel facet which I think cannot be overlooked and I wish somebody could say it better.