Iraq is becoming the predicted quagmire of military playing traffic cop, setting themselves up as standing targets. Soldiers shoot innocents accidently. It becomes difficult to do the job. Here are some great stats from Vietnam. I was reading a thread where history was involved, and it amazes me how much people can talk about history and be so wrong. Here are the facts. ----------------- I. Official Campaigns of the War in Vietnam (Time of service 15 March 1962 - 28 March 1973) 1. Vietnam Advisory Campaign (15 March 1962 - 07 March 1965) 2. Vietnam Defense Campaign (08 March 1965 - 24 December 1965) 3. Vietnamese Counter-offensive Campaign (25 December 1965 - 30 June 1966) 4. Vietnamese Counter-offensive Phase II (01 July 1966 - 31 May 1967) 5. Vietnamese Counter-offensive Phase III (01 June 1967 - 29 January 1968) 6. Tet Counteroffensive (30 January 1968 - 01 April 1968) 7. Vietnamese Counter-offensive Phase IV (02 April 1968 - 30 June 1968) 8. Vietnamese Counter-offensive Phase V (01 July 1968 - 01 November 1968) 9. Vietnamese Counter-offensive Phase VI (02 November 1968 - 22 February 1969) 10. Tet 69/Counteroffensive (23 February 1969 - 08 June 1969) 11. Vietnam Summer-Fall 1969 (09 June 1969 - 31 October 1969) 12. Vietnam Winter-Spring 1970 (01 November 1969 - 30 April 1970) 13. Sanctuary Counter-offensive (01 May 1970 - 30 June 1970) 14. Vietnamese Counter-offensive Phase VII (01 July 1970 - 30 June 1971) 15. Consolidation I (01 July 1971 - 30 November 1971) 16. Consolidation II (01 December 1971 - 29 March 1972) 17. Vietnam Ceasefire Campaign (30 March 1972 - 28 March 1973) ---------------- II.STATISTICS IN UNIFORM AND IN COUNTRY * Vietnam Veterans: 9.7% of their generation. * 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam era (August 5, 1964 - May 7, 1975). * 8,744,000 GIs were on active duty during the war (August 5, 1964 - March 28, 1973). * 3,403,100 (including 514,300 offshore) personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters). 2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (January 1, 1965 - March 28, 1973). * Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964. * Of the 2,6 million, between 1 - 1.6 million (40 - 60%) either fought in combat, provided close support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack. * 7,484 women (6,250 or 83.5% were nurses) served in Vietnam. * Peak troop strength in Vietnam: 543,482 (April 30, 1969). CASUALTIES * Hostile deaths: 47,359. * Non-hostile deaths: 10,797. * Total: 58,202 (includes men formerly classified as MIA and Mayaguez casualties). Men who have subsequently died of wounds account for the changing total. * 8 nurses died - 1 was KIA. * Married men killed: 17,539. * 61% of the men killed were 21 or younger. * Highest state death rate: West Virginia - 84.1 men per 100,000 males serving in Vietnam (national average 58.9 men for every 100,000 males serving in Vietnam. {Averaged in 1970}). * Wounded: 303,704 (153,329 hospitalized + 150,375 injured requiring no hospital care). * Severely disabled: 75,000--23,214 100% disabled; 5,283 lost limbs; 1,081 sustained multiple amputations. Amputation or crippling wounds to the lower extremities were 300% higher than in WWII and 70% higher than in Korea. Multiple amputations occurred at the rate of 18.4% compared to 5.7% in WWII * Missing in Action: 2,338. * POWs: 766 (114 died in captivity). DRAFTEES AND VOLUNTEERS * 25% of the total forces in country were draftees 648,500 as opposed to 66% of the ones in WWII. * Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam. * Reservists killed: 5,977. * National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died. * Total draftees (1965-73): 1,728,344. * Actually served in Vietnam: 38%. * Marine Corps draft: 42,633. * Last man drafted: June 30, 1973 RACE AND ETHNIC BACKGROUND * 88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian, 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% listed as others. * 86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics); 12.5% (7,241) were black; 1.2% belonged to other races. * 170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam; 3,070 (5.2% of total) died there. * 86.8% of the men who were killed as a result of hostile action were Caucasian; 12.1% (5,711)were black; 1.1% belonged to other races * 14.6% (1.530) of non-combat deaths were among blacks. * 34% of blacks who enlisted volunteered for the combat arms. * Overall, blacks suffered 12.5% of the deaths in Vietnam at a time when the percentage of blacks of military age was 13.5% of the total population. * Religion of Dead: Protestant--64.4%; Catholic--28.9%; other/none--6.7%. SOCIO-ECONOMIC STATUS * 76% of the men sent to Vietnam were from lower middle/ working class backgrounds. * Three-fourths had family incomes above the poverty level; 50% were from middle income backgrounds. * Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial or technical occupations. * 79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the military service. (63% of Korean War vets and only 45% of WWII vets had completed high school upon separation). * Deaths by region per 100,000 of population: South-31, West-29.9; Midwest-28.4; Northeast-23.5 WINNING & LOSING * 82% of veterans who saw heavy combat strongly believe the war was lost because of lack of political will * Nearly 75% of the public agrees it was a failure of political will, not of arms. HONORABLE SERVICE * 97% of Vietnam-era veterans were honorably discharged. * 91% of actual Vietnam War veterans and 90% of those who saw heavy combat are proud to have served their country. * 66% of Vietnam vets say they would serve again if called upon. * 87% of the public now holds Vietnam veterans in high esteem
What probably happened in vietnam is that the guys fighting the war were wussy silver spoon eating liberals like John Kerry, Bob Kerrey and Max Cleland while badass conservative asskickers like Tom DeLay, Trent Lott, GWB, and Dick Chaney were at home massaging their bum knees or skipping out on their national guard duty.
The Republicans who serve in the House of Representatives hold over 200 seats. Almost all were draft or service age during Vietnam. Anyone know how many of them served in Vietnam? chickenhawks over 9 million served - including Al Gore, John Kerry, Bob Kerrey, and a host of others. Newt didn't. Rush didn't. Dubya didn't. DeLay didn't. Armey didn't.
And wasn't good ole Al Gore one of like, three members of his entire college class to volunteer for duty in Vietnam?
Speaking of Goldwater, I had a great History proff in college who related a little exchange he overheard between Barry and John McCain at some convention in Arizona. My proff had staffed for various congressmen and govenors. A group of folks had surronded the two men as they glad-handed and schmucked for the visitors. Barry leaned over to John and said, "Ya know John, if you had voted for me and I was elected, you wouldn't have spent all that time in a Vietmanese POW camp.." John Looked at him, as he was shaking his hand, and said."You're absolutely right Barry, it would have been a Chinese POW camp..." This could be urban-legend, but I don't think my proff was making it up--interesting anyway.....
when Goldwater ran in 1964, he was opposed to LBJ's new war in Vietnam, but he was generally bellicose and war like in his statements about China, which was called RED China in those days.
A quick count shows that roughly 31% of Republicans and 25% of Democrats in the House are veterans. http://veterans.house.gov/vetinfo/memberstats.htm
12 democrats and 18 republicans have reportedly served in combat, of the 435 house members. that's less than 10% of either party's house membership I don't know how many served in Vietnam, but it's not even that many. Some of these guys served in WWII, Korea, or Gulf War I. edit: 9 of the Dems served in Vietnam 12 of the repub served in Vietnam
Don't forget Dick Cheney, Trent Lott, Karl Rove, John Ashcroft, Newt Gingrich, Bill O'Reilly and George W. Bush. Oh, and Tom DeLay, Rudy Giuliani, Phil Gramm, Dennis Hastert and George Will. These chickenhawks avoided military service, but they have no problems sending YOU off to get killed on foreign soil. For a complete list of who served and who didn't (in the 106th Congress) check out: http://www.fra.org/leg-center-2/106th-congress/106-cong-mil-lst.html
So FF, after you desparaged the House Republicans as being "chickenhawks", you acknowledge that a greater percentage of Republicans than Democrats both saw action and served their country? Aren't you being a little unfair?
Another sidebar to those "RED" days, My father worked for "bullsh*t"-Charlie Wilson or "Good-Time Charley" back in the mid seventies. John Tower, the half-pint Texas Tyrant Senator, used to play poker with my father and some of the other folks from the Texas delegation--quite bi-partison actually, ESPECIALY when it came to swilling whiskey and chasing skirt...I mention "red" bacause he always called my dear ole' dad a Chi-Com-Symp--which in those days was anyone who wouldn't push the nuke-button with glee if called apon to make China a smoldering pile of ashes...seems that sentiment has come back around in DC....
Percentages aren't as important as who served. The majority of the Republican leadership avoided military service. The majority of the Democratic leadership served. Take from that what you will.
no, the Republican party is full of HAWKS thus the term "CHICKENHAWK" see how that works? your heroes are bunch of scarey cats who talk big but don't show I served while your president was AWOL.
