put a healthy steve on the exact same cleveland team, and he takes them to the playoffs in the weak east. absolutely no question about it. miller is a better point guard and he can get his teammates involved better but he is not near as valuable to a team as steve.
It doesn't matter if they agree with me. Especially about trading him. If they recognize his shortcomings and still draw the conclusion that he's worth it, I'm okay with that. He has led this team in as many as 3 separate categories at one time, so they would have a decent case to say he's worth something. If they want to deny the specifics: 1. He plays no defense 2. He's the reason our guys are standing around doing nothing. 3. His turnovers have cost us games. Then maybe we'll have something to talk about.
The same Cle team we're 0-2 against this year? Granted Francis didn't play in 1 of them. But he did play in the other loss. Tell me what Francis does better than Miller. I can only tell you that he is a better long range jump shooter. Francis puts up better rebounding stats, but that is at the cost of getting zero fast break points. If Miller were asked to rebound like Francis is, then Miller would average pretty close to 7 boards a game. He's at 4.9 right now.
Miller is better than Francis. Light years better as a passer and he actually has some defensive intensity. Francis is a defensive sieve. Francis' only edge is in athleticism (but Miller is MUCH smarter than him, so this edge is neutralized) and outside shooting, although Francis' outside shooting has been subpar this season. (Barkleyesque 3 pt%) Francis' assist/TO ratio is one of the worst in the NBA among PG's. He just doesn't have good fundamentals or great court vision. To be in his 3rd year and leading the NBA in TO's is a sign that he's just not progressing as a player while Miller keeps getting better and better. The argument about the Rockets sucking w/out Francis is somewhat overstated. Is the difference between being horrible and mediocre really that significant? The step from horrible to mediocre is the easy one, it's the next step to becoming a good team which is tough to make and the Rockets will be hardpressed to do that so long as Francis is a TO machine who can't setup his teammates well or play any defense at all.
1. Francis is better than Miller. 2. ARE YOU NUTS. The Rockets are 19-17 with Francis and 2-20 without him. HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT FRANCIS PLAYING DOESN'T MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE?
Statistics are more credible than opinion alone. If you can back up your opinion with some facts, then I will hold it more credible. Granted they don't play for the same team, but they do play against the same teams, plus Miller plays more games against an arguably weaker conference. Which player was voted an all-star game starter again? Which one didn't make the all-star team? I'll agree Miller was a snub, but I'll draw the line at saying he's better than Francis.
About the turnovers, Andre Miller is #1 in the league in assists per game, #9 in the league in assist to turnover ratio. Steve Francis is the WORST point guard in the league in that stat AFAIK. Even Larry Hughes, who's a 2 playing out of position at the 1 is about twice as good as Steve Francis at the assist to turnover ratio. There are many power forwards, small forwards, shooting guards that have a better assist to turnover ratio than Francis. So don't bring up the turnover stat if you want to give props to Francis. We can't win much without him, but that's because no one else can carry this team with ISO's like him ( or Dream used to ). If we had some other game plan, maybe the stats wouldn't be so bad but that's the way it is.
That made little to no sense. Jason kidd rebounds good, so is that causing him to lose fast break points. Granted, Frances can't run fast break right now, but to say that Miller could average 7 boards, but the only reason he is not is because he is busy getting fast break points.... haha.... ....well maybe Shaq can average 15 assist a game, but the only reason he isn't is because he is shooting. Yeah.. I'm sure shaq can turn into a Stockton if he wanted to. Guards can run fast break after getting a rebound. Just see Jason Kidd. Francis hustles for the boards, and he has the ups to get em. Its his ability, something that Miller does not have. I'm not going to argue over who is better player, but to discredit steve's rebounding number with a statement like that makes you seem not very intellegent.
Did you ever analyze Steve's stats vs Carter's stats that Sane posted yesterday? Those stats seemed to make your player analysis skills look questionable.
has andre miller ever seen close to .500 ball at least 20 games into the season. hell even 10 games in his team hasn't done anything. francis on the other hand led us to 45 wins last year in a big-man dominated west. this year we are 2-19 without him. c'mon half of these posts are jokes which try and blindly pick apart steve. i'll be the first to admit he needs to work on quite a few things but here's what steve does better: HE GETS YOU MORE WINS, he shoots better, he gets to the hole better, he draws more fouls, and yes he rebounds better(despite whatever assinine comment you'd want to make to state otherwise). he also has the uncanny ability that few have to simply take over games. Yes people are still learning the game a mere 2 and a half years into playing point guard. this thread is ridiculous.
I'll give Miller the edge in assists, but the difference in turnovers is really negligible. Consider this: Steve: 3.97, 3.31, 4.14 Miller: 2.02 (10.6 less mpg), 3.23 (5.2 less mpg), 3.17 (4.2 less mpg) As for fg%, judging by Miller's 3pt%, it seems Steve shoots more 3 pointers and therefore this would lower his fg%, which is still just a fraction behind Miller's. fg%: Steve 99/00: +.006%, 00/01: -.001%, 01/02: -.023% 3pt%: I really don't need to get into, Miller doesn't even compare. Now about only the assist statistic making Miller a better point guard, I don't know. It's like asking whether John Stockton is/was a better point guard than Gary Payton since he averaged more assists. Both can be argued to be a better pg. However, between Francis and Miller, I still think Francis is by far the better player, again, statistically.
I think both are good and help their team a great deal. I used to laugh when people on this board used to put Francis light yrs ahead of Davis and Miller. One guy said Francis led his team to 45 wins, well Davis led his team to the second round, so does that make him better? Steve has faults just like any other player and I don't think the style of ball we play makes it any better. In my eyes upon the progression of a player, Steve should be at least 8 asst a game. He'll never be a 10 asst man,but Baron and even the shoot box marbury and van excel throw 8 dimes. I'm just glad people get to see Miller as beaing a real good player. The same guy who had triple doubles in the NCAA while he was in school. He's a heck of a player and is getting better. You don't shoot 45% and not being able to shoot. So what he doesn't shoot the 3, maybe Steve shouldn't shoot it as much either, KJ never shot them until the end of his career and he was 20-10 every yr. Francis has room to improve, moreso with his decision making than anything. Placing him in a friendlier system wound't harm his pregression either. Davis,Francis, and Miller are all good young players that are getting better, but to me all are equal. All 3 are still a small notch behind Payton and Kidd.
Well, Francis did win (co)Rookie of the Year, so that does put him ahead of Davis and Miller. Davis led his team to the second round in the EASTERN conference. The Rockets would have been I think either 4th or 5th seed in that same conference. Do you really think Davis could have led the Hornets past the first round in the WEST?
Who does Andre Miller make better? Now you can't use any stats to back up your argument because, as you so conveniently mentioned, "Stats are very irrelevent if you factor in the fact they play on different teams." So which one of Cleveland's great All-Star players does Miller make better? If he is so good, and he makes all of his teammates that much better, how come they suck year after year? I think Steve makes nearly every player on the team better. Take his rebounding, which you apparently think isnt too special. Steve doesnt just get rebounds because he isnt outready to run the fast break and balls drop his way. Man, he skies over the big men for a lot fo his boards. He gets a lot of them because of the ineptitude of Cato or the inexperience of Griffin or the size problems of KT. You don't think getting those rebounds helps the team give up fewer offensive boards (something which would be more of a problem than lack of fast break due to our generally poor defense) and covers some of the rebounding mistakes of our bigmen. How are these specifics? For the most part they seem like opinions. I think Steve is a good perimeter defender. Defending guards is a tricky business. So much of it is dependant on who backs you up on the interior. For the Rockets, it isnt much. But, Steve is a scrapper. He gets steals (take a play in the Toronto game - he went down to help on someone else's man, couldnt get the steal so instantly kept running out to guard yet another player's assignment and got the steal as the inside Raptors player became confused and tried to pass it out) and helps well down low. Further, the offense is usually much more stangnant when Francis is out. Moochie will come in and dribble away 20 seconds or the ball will go to Mobley play after play so he can hold it for what seems like an hour before shooting a jumpshot 2 feet in front of the 3 point line. With Francis in the game, Cato gets a much larger number of alley-oops, KT is ont eh reciveing end of some bullet passes to go for a wide open layup/dunk, Mobley shoots wide-open 3 pointers (vs those covered "almost" three pointers he shoots otherwise) and Moochie gets some open shots. BUT, I agree that Francis needs to work on some things. His turnovers have lost us a game or two, but they were generally ones we were only in because he was in the game in the first place. Still, he needs to work on making up his mind more quickly. When he drives the lane he needs to have a plan, to adjust that plan quickly, and to either shoot a short jumper, drive hard to the whole (watching offensive fouls) or pass it off. I've seen enough passes while players were already in the air this year to make me want to vomit. Defensively, the whole team needs to work more on guarding the outside shot (I still think this is because they are so often sagging in to help down low) and putting their hands up. But to argue Miller is a better PG, much less a better player than Francis at this point seems very far-fetched to me.
What do you mean suck year after year, Miller has only been a full time starter since LAST YEAR. And now he is only in his third year in the league. Give him sometime, he might suprise you in a few years and be the best pg in the league.
