I’ll leave the stats to Durvasa and the other brilliant folks on this board. This is what my eyes tell me. Good and Great teams are made up of 2 way players, supplemented by strong 1 way specialists. Lakers: Fisher/Brown/Kobe/Odom/Gasol/Bynum/Barnes/Blake SAS: Duncan/Blair/McDyess/Manu/Jefferson/Hill/Parker/Bonner Bos: Rondo/Pierce/Allen/Garnett/Perkins/BigBaby/Robinson Chi: Rose/Deng/Brewer/Boozer/Noah/Gibson/Thomas/Korver The Rockets have way too many 1 way players playing big minutes, rather than supplemental roles. This tells me we are a long ways away from building a contender. It also strikes me that our team is tiny. If you’re a 1 way player, you better be outstanding in that 1 way. Kevin Martin and the Chuck Wagon are the only ones that meet this criteria. Thus, you can keep them as you build a winning team (of course, deal anyone if the right trade comes along). AB – considering both last and this year – is a plus offensive player, but not elite our outstanding enough to outweigh the negatives. The other problem is that we are not playing him as a limited specialist, but counting on him for big minutes and production. I’m waiting for the right deal to come along and then move him. It is exhausting to watch AB get killed on the defensive end. Assuming that we can’t package AB in a mega trade, I would trade him for a lotto protected 1st round pick and let Morey take another swing. Buddinger – he has actually improved on D, from tragic to just bad. His rebounding has improved, but he’s still charmin soft. I’d deal him but would be more willing to keep him than AB because we are using him properly as a spot bench player, which he is qualified to be. When it comes down to it, I’d rather have Courtney Lee be our wing player off the bench than Budd, b/c Lee is a 2 way player. Budd is a cheaper, less deadly Kyle Korver. We need to develop our potential 2 way players. Terrence Williams and PatPat have the potential to be starting caliber 2 way players. They need to be given 20 mpg to grow. You can see that PatPat has offensive ability, but he is deferring to his teammates. Let’s tell him to be more aggressive, feature him in some plays and see what happens. We need to find out if he is more than a role player. My fervent hope is that after the trade deadline, our lineup would look like this. Lowry/Martin/Battier/Scola/Hayes Lee/Twill/Budd/PatPat AB is traded; Hill is a situational sub or traded. I would not mind trading Battier. It would cost us wins, but I would start Lee and open up more time for Twill. Finally, I think Ish Smith could become a legit NBA starter. I don’t have a feel for how much he might get abused on the defensive end, but his pure PG skills are top notch. This thread is more depressing than I originally intended. Crap.
I could not agree more. It's time to salvage this season by growing our two best 2-way prospects. I would be ok with doing this after the trade deadline, so these players might not be asked to be included in any deals. You can tell by the way PP moves on defense, the man knows how to play the game. emphasis on MAN, because he looks like a man child out there. T_will has not shown as much promise YET. im ok with this, as long as he gets some burn after the trade deadline then i will try to be patient. We need to sacrifice some Adelman's offense at some point to get a squad that can actually stop players. At the same time, A defensive low post presence would make everyone on our team look better, so its hard to be too down on our guys. Not having any sort of post presence just accentuates the defensive flaws of our current squad even more.
We can look at this from any side, angle, direction or whatever. stats, two way players, starters, coaching, whatever. None of that matters. We dont have Yao and we dont have Tracy anymore, thats why we suck.
I think at the end of the day what we lack most is simply talent. Whether it's 1 way or 2 way or 3 ways, as long as it's not a 0 way player like Jordan Hill, any kind of player would help if he's simply a good player. People argued over the off season that Lebron and Wade did not fit together. That the Heat should not be mentioned with the elites yet because it was only "on paper". There was no chemistry. Well chemistry is overrated, just like fit. I don't care that it seems our team is mashed up together like square pegs in round holes. The reason why we are mediocre is not because of that. It is because of a broken foot and a broken knee. That is where our talent went.
What does any of this have to do with the future success of the team .... pissing and moaning about the past isnt going to solve the problems of the future. The OP shows some forward thinking .... We are smack in the middle of the second consecutive wasted season. May as well get something out of it besides a lottery pick that wont feel much like winning the lottery. @ the OP - I think Ish Smith is a much better defender than he's given credit for. Sure there will be situations where he will get abused (Rose , Williams) by bigger PG's but those are the exception rather than the rule. For Ish its more about getting the team into the offense seamlessly. He can get guy's easy looks by breaking down the defense one on one and in transition but its working within the offense thats going to get him off the bench and on the court. (along with developing some range.)
Morey constructed such a team in '08-'09: Brooks/Lowry Battier/Wafer Artest/Barry Scola/Landry Yao/Hayes
The Rockets have to set their expectations higher and acquire upper tier talent. I know that's easier said than done but first they have to realize they have mediocre talent and go from there. Otherwise, we'll keep seeing people here believe that Brooks or Martin are world beaters.
Rockets do understand they need better talent. DM has been saying this for a LONG time. Why do you think every time a super star has trade talks, Rockets are always in the mix. The assets we have now are what DM has accumulated by intelligently utilizing his existing and SEVERELY limited resources.
Thats right, all the good teams dont rely on too may one dimensional players, if any. I especially agree with what the OP said on T-Will+PPat+Ish. The only two way players we have are Lowry, Lee, T-Will and PPat. The latter two should defintely see more time. ISH plays better D than Brooks and orchastrates the team better than Brooks. Like some one else mentoned in another post - One way players have to excell at that what do to a very high level in order to counter/make up for what ever other skills they dont have. Like Martin and Hayes - they kind of make up for what they dont have by using what they do have at a very high level. Besides those two, all our other one dimensional players need to be held accountable. Battier used to be multi-dimensional, he had so many ways to contribute on the floor than just defense and spot ups 3s. BUT he aint the same player anymore, so even he must be held accountable for the failures so far. My ideal model to build a contending is a Kobe-Shaq model. Both are just as good at defending as they are at scoring. What we really really should target are two guys - one on the wing and one big guy down low who are both ALL NBA TEAM (can be 1st/2nd/3rd - all very good) and NBA ALL DEFENSIVE TEAM (can be 1st or 2nd - both very good) material at the same time. We had one in YAO but Tracy was never going to make All Defensive team. This is crucial because then we dont need guys on the roster just to cover the weaknesses of one dimensional players, like we do now. Right now it takes us 4 guys to have that - one scorer, one defendor on the wing (Battier/Martin). Then we have one scorer and one defender on the paint (Scola/Hayes). Thats 4 guys. Wouldnt it be better if we can cut that down to two players instead of four? That would also allow us 3 roster spots to load weapons into rather than just 1. A guy who is aswesome at both scoring and defending on the wing, and a guy who can dominate the post on defense and offense. The Kobe-Shaq, Kobe-Gasol, Wade-Shaq model is what I like. Have two guys that you can run your offense through and who are the back bone in your defense. Even then you cant just have role players, you will need a strong 3rd option and a few 2-way players. The 3rd guy doesnt have to be diamond like the other two but he still has to be gold. You will need to spend around $80 Mill here. The only time you can rely on filling up the roster with one-dimensial scrubs or role players is when you have the Boston or Miami model. The BIG 3 model. They both have 2 guys who are All NBA team and NBA all defense team. Rondo/KG plus Wade/Lebron. Even then I think if you want three all stars they should be one at point, one on wing, and one down low. Thats where I think OKC and the Bulls can be really dangerous. Bulls are set in Noah+Rose - they just need that all star on the wings. And OKC are set with Westbrook and KD and just need that All star down low. If you have that kind of combo then you can surround them withall the one-dimensional role playes you want. You will need around $80 mill here too. BUT as we all know you cant with all role players and no all stars. Thats the H-town model.
Ugh... what are you saying? Great 2-way players do NOT grow on trees. Also, Shaq is not a great defensive player by any means. He is just massive, so it is hard to play against him in the post. Draw him outside and he is as useless as Yao. Kobe became a great defender. When he first started out, he was not nearly as good defensively. He worked very hard to become the 2-way player he is today. Also, how do you propose we target these said players when they appear in the draft or become available through free agency? DM has already tried to push us into every trade talk involving any and all superstars. We have already tried trading up in the draft. We are not bad enough to ever make it beyond late lottery pick nor is Houston attractive to lure mercenary free agents. Teams with high picks want us to gut our team for a gamble (not all lottery picks hash out as you see with Kwame Brown) and stars want to go to players like LA, NYC, Miami, and Boston. You know, teams that are established contenders with huge markets? Your assumption that Houston composes its team entirely out of role players is dead wrong as well. We collect assets with manageable contracts with our limited resources, because we currently do not possess the ability to simply outright sign a star level free agent. However, this is NOT how DM wants to build this team. If it is, why is he always telling all of us we NEED a superstar and why is he always trying to get one? That hardly sounds like a GM wanting to build a team of role players. Our role players are simply the best option for us at this time due to lack of better options. If a trade opportunity DOES come up, I am sure that DM won't hesitate to pull the trigger.
I agree with what you're saying but Shaq is a good defensive player. If all it took was size or height then Muresan or Pig Miller or Tractor Traylor would have had the defensive success that he's had. You can't deny that he's an elite defender, even if it's partly due to size. Same with Yao.
i think we've known for a while that the problem was the talent level. you can call it what you want: we dont have 2 way players, we dont have a superstar, etc... its all the same. we dont have enough talent to compete.
Like Yao, Shaq was not just size or height. Shaq was an ungodly combination of size, length, height, and weight, just like Yao. His defense is in no way a testament to his skills. Opponents cannot back him down and due to him towering over near everyone, opponents cannot easily shoot over him from inside the paint here. Shaq does a pretty good job keeping within the correct defensive rotations, but he was NOT an elite defender. It is simply too hard to back down a mountain or shoot over one. Yao proved this as well. Yao is in no way a great defender, but due to his height, weight, and overall size, players could not back him down or easily shoot over him. All he has to do is stand in the paint and hold up his hands.
The role players are OUTSTANDING. But they are not outstanding to win by themselves. They are called "role players" for multiple reasons. If we had Yao and McGrady, atleast in 2007-2008 form, there is no doubt this team would be one of the top 5 teams in the league. We need a SUPERSTAR!
1st if all I aplogise for not being able to express my reply/opinion in a short and concise manner. Why would you want to move Shaq from under the rim in the 1st place? He was so good at cloggin up those lanes and putting guys on their asses when they came any where near the rim. Why would you take that away? Get someone else to guard the high post players. The fact that he knew how to use his size to a strength is huge skill in it self. Not a lot of guys can use their size and strength to their advantage. SO NO he wasnt a good defendor just because of his size, he knew and applied the principles and he made good decisions out on the floor. Making sound judgements has nothing to do with size. And a lot of guys understand the principles of good d but they still cant produce it on the floor. Yeah Kobe wasnt born a defender and he worked into it. Jordan didnt become the player he was just by sittin on his bum either. Everyone that is a superstar are natually gifted but even then no one can do it with out years of extreme hard work. Yeah, those kinda players dont grow on trees and coaches like Pops and Sloan dont grow on trees either. I get it - they are rare. I know as you have stated that Morey is trying to get a super star, but due a combination or circumstances we arent positioned as the best suitors. And what I have learnt through frustration is Morey wont make a move just for the sake of it. He will wait for the right piece at the right price. Thats good. The trick is not to lose revenue and fan base in the process of rebuilding, while waiting for the right piece - thats very very crucial during this kinda process. Superstars will go to two kinda places like you mentioned - a big market like NY or LA, - or an established team. Teams arent establisheed from day 1, it takes time. We arent like LA, NY or Miami. So, how will we get that first superstar and start to establish ourselves again? We keep all options open - we keep piling assets just in case something turns up like a superstar getting disgutntled, or new coach/ownership has different vision for his new team .... I dont know, just keep piling and waiting. At the same time dont invest in large contracts so that we have money to sign in FA if the chance comes. Also, we will need to stand at bottom of the ladder for about 3 years - OKC, ATL, MEM had good success with this. The more options we keep open the more it increases our chances. Plus we have one of the better GMS when it comes to making sound decisions. Lets face it he built us a hell of a team for YAO, the only thing is he gambled on Yaos health and didnt get us a solid back up for him. Otherwise he did really well. The one-dimensional role players (Brooks, Hayes, Landry, Bud) and 3rd string players like Martin and Scola would have been fine if Yao was here. He can do it again. IMO - we bank on 2012 FA market. Go for Howard and Paul. At the same time start playing young and trade our vets for more assets.. Meantime we manipulate the roster in such a way so we can accomodate both of them finacially. This way we can start aiming for those high draft picks by playing young. And have more assets to trade for a superstar or trading higher up in draft. And we have cap room to sign in FA. Acquiring a coach like Pops or Sloan (not actually them but coaches based on their strenghts, traits and qualities) who will stick around would be a huge pulling force towards landing a superstar. We have all options open this way. BUT at the same time as losing we need to fans to purchase tickets, merchandise and all that other stuff for revenue. Thats why we need to run an exciting style of play for the fans to keep coming. Even with losing it has to be exciting like the Warriors or the new Bobcats. Thats my best stab, Im open to hearing better ways. My coments about "a team with no stars and all role players is the H-Town model". I made that comment out of emotion and not logic. I agree with your reply there. I am just sick and tried of not knowing which direction we are headed in. Sorry I count explain in shorter terms.
