"Elaine...you gotta have a baby!!!" i really like seinfeld...and since you and jeff do too...well...here's another!
Trader- You make it really impossible to sit on the sidelines. I hate to get into the name calling but you are really making yourself look foolish with your 'hypocrisy' and eye rolling bullsh*t. Batman is doing his best to be articulate about his stance and you sit there and roll your eyes and say hypocrite. Is it possible for you to provide a better logic for you belief than "Last time I checked, sodomy and homosexual marriages weren't legal in the state of Texas. " Once upon a time segregation was legal in Texas as well, and when the laws change, and they will, so that sodomy and homosexual marriages ARE legal in Texas, will you recant your position as well? As far as I'm concerned homosexuality is an extremely 'evolutionarily stable' behavior. It makes perfect sense for me that people can be born with all of the human abilities and desires for love and happiness but NOT the predisposition to reproduce. We need more of that. Fewer babies. And as a side note, if you choose to breed, please do not bring your screaming baby into the grown up restaurants. Thanks
As an add-on to this, Slavery was also legal and accepted...does this make it right? Hell No!! Just because soething is illegal doesn't make it wrong...and just cause somethings legal doesn't make it right. Also...on the environmental thing....I really doubt it's about environment. My cousin comes from a family of five kids..they were all rased the same way an in the same environment and he is the only one who ended up gay. Trust me, it's not much of a "choice" when all it does is lead to ppl treating him as an outcast or some sort of inferior person...he is gay because he feels attracted to men and thats who he wants to be with. Not because it's the "hip" thing to be. mfclark, thanks for the Simpsons reference...I loved that episode!
OK . . . Why do people get Tattoes knowing that it is looked down on [not as much now as it use to be] . . . Peircings . .etc. These things definately incur some discrimination. I think when someone says Choice people visualize a guy sitting in his room saying "I WANNA BE GAY" I don't think that is the way it is at all. For instance. If a girl has no job. . . no sig other. . no medicare insurance .. no anything . . . and has an abortion cause she FELT she had No choice. a better analogy is . . . . how much choice does one . . . temperment. . . . no one is genetically ill tempered to me. like spoiling children . . . .this illicits behavior that would only seem natural to those children. . . . Rocket River
Just because it was reported. . . or not label as the reason does not mean it did not happen. i know of folx who have been harrassed by cops because of these typo of things Rocket River
I used to get hasselled by cops because of the length of my hair.. It is a choice.. Having many piercings and tatts is something that you decide to do... These are things we "decide" to do to ourselves, I don't see what relevence it has to the discussion... Being gay is not a choice...whether or not to admit it publicly is a choice..That would be the only parallel I can see to the tat argument...
I think I know what you're saying and I think I agree. But if I understand you correctly what your saying is "it's all relative". I'm not quoting you just trying to understand the gist of your statements. Or maybe I don't agree. Although I agree with the girl having no job and FEELING compelled to have an abortion because she 'has no choice' is more a matter of 'cost/benefits' analysis than fate, I don't think being gay is a comparable experience. If I understand you correctly. Back to your ill tempered. I would say that ill temperment has more to do with diet and world view, a culturally biased trait, than natural state which I think 'gayness' is and I think that's what we are all discussing, is being gay natural or un-natural. My analogy would be that homosexuallity is as fundamental to the reality of the homosexual (and not negotiable) as heterosexuality is to the heterosexual. I'm not really heterosexual by choice, I just am, and it would cause me great pain , and occasionally does to be honest , should someone try to force me to be homosexual through societal pressure or upbringing.
Teacher: "And who was the first person to propose reproduction without sex?" Bueller: "Your wife?" Sorry, had to toss that one out...carry on.
that is IN YOUR OPINION In mine. . . it *is* a choice People make MANY CHOICES with negative consequences for people to jump and down and say . . WHY WOULD SOME ONE CHOSE TO DO THIS IF THEY GONNA GET ALL THIS GRIEF Well . . why do people CHOOSE to drink and drive Why do people CHOOSE to do crack .. . or heroin The whole argument that NO ONE WOULD CHOOSE TO BE GAY is ridiculous Rocket River
Exactly. I think genetics is not the end all be all of who we are alot of it is environmental. You did a better jo of explaining than i think i did Rocket River thanks
Of course it's my opinion...What else could it be? I'm not gonna sit here and try to say it's my way or the highway... It's just an opinion based on what I have seen and known...could I be wrong? of course I could... Noone here can say with any certainty that their opinion is "the one way"...that's why this is a discussion. You present your opinion and try to back it up with what facts are known to you and I try to do the same...My frame of reference is different than yours..therefor, my opinion is different. I don't say that I believe it can't be a choice because of the social aspects only...I was giving an example of why I don't believe it is all environmental...notice I said "all" environmental. I do believe that biology has a large role in a person's sexual preference...but to put it all down as environmental only is not looking at all the facts.. Why do ppl chose to drink and drive?....hmmm...cause the are stupid?? Why do ppl do crack or heroin...cause it maked them feel good?? Yes it's stupid..you know it, I know it.. But choosing to do something like that still isn't the same (imo) as someone "choosing" who the are attracted to... Ah hell....who wants pie!!?
The more I re-read this thread...the closer I think our views are...If I read this correctly..to a certain degree, I also agree with the way backwardhead puts it...maybe I have lost my train-o-thought here??
You can't teach (or dare explain) style like Chris's. You either have it or you don't. I wonder if Chris has any other 'style consultants' in his family tree. I think if we knew the answer to that it just might put an end to this discussion.
I thought of that scene from WarGames when I wrote it, too, but didn't know if I could make the reference and have anybody get it.
I gotta say I had a much better time talking about pot. To all the people who say, "I don't care what you say. I have a right to my own opinion and my opinion is that being gay is wrong and unnatural and also it's a choice," okay. Yes. You have that right. God bless America, the country where we are tolerant of even the most blatant intolerance. I don't mean that ironically. I really do appreciate it. I never said environmental factors weren't a factor in homosexuality. But it is NOT a choice. It's not a choice any more than any of you "choose" to be attracted to people of the opposite sex. If you're a man and you like trim, traditionally attractive women, is it a "choice" not to like very large women? For those who like large women, is that a choice? It might have to do with genetics and it might have to do with environment, but it's not a choice. Something happens to a person's body (you know, down there) when they are attracted to someone. You don't get to decide to have that physical reaction, you just have it. It's not a choice. Same goes for crushes. Same goes for love. You say you have the right to say who should love who, well you do have that right. Why you would want to exercise it is beyond me. In fact, here's a good question: Do you think your need to say who should love who is genetic or learned behavior? To Rocket River: Who said we were discussing gay sex and not gay relationships? I think we're discussing both. And did you really say that infertile people were unnatural? I mean, I respect your right to say that, this being America and all, but my goodness, did you really say that? The people here who feel persecuted because they feel their opinions aren't being respected are missing something. One side says people should live in whatever way makes them happy. The other side says they shouldn't, but should rather live in the way that pleases them. It's not an even fight. The progressive stance here is tolerance of other people's private lives, even if they ARE a choice. The other side is intolerant and invasive of other people's private lives. Your persecution here is zero compared to the persecution of gays and lesbians, to which your almighty opinion contributes.
