I'm not saying science doesn't play a part. But no one has isolated a "gay gene" (which would do what, make a gay protein? No, if this exists it probably just sends signals which alter the hormonal balance). And obviously there are people who don't fit neatly into one category. Not to be bigoted... I have nothing against people as long as they're not hurting anyone... but it's a complex issue and, like most things these days, I doubt there's one single easy answer that fits everybody.
This is what I was trying to say in my first post. You say there is no "gay" gene, but there is a gene that makes us desire the opposite sex and want to procreate with them...correct? Many people say that homosexuality is a "learned" behavior, but is it? If so, is heterosexuality? How many people are taught to be heterosexual? I don't think anyone is...its just something you know and desire because our genes have instilled our bodies to be that way. If they didn't then our species would not have made it this far. I think it is very possible that a gene can make a diffenence in someone's sexual behavior just as a gene can make a diffenence in one's mental health, as many psych patients have proven.
Being gay is a *choice* some people make in life. Humans are pre-disposed to *not* be gay. Humans *are* pre-disposed to have children. You see, that is how you and I were born. That is also the way humans are still in existence today. Batman -- go ahead an call me a "religious bigot". Your comment that people who "resist" are religious bigots was ridiculous. Hypocrisy at its finest.
I don't recall ever making a choice. How often do heteros use sex for procreational purposes? Probably one-tenth of a percent.
Outlaw -- Humans who have survived the natural selection process and made it this far feel pleasure when having sex (or simulating it). This leads them to want to have sex. This leads them to carrying on their gene pool. This leads to survival of the race. And before you even start it..... Sex is defined here as "a man having intercourse with a female."
Really...so is it a choice to be 5'7" instead of 6''10"? Was it an albino's choice to have no skin pigment instead of free flowing melanin in their skin? I'm sure that psych patients CHOOSE to be psychotic and withdrawn from their family. They choose their brains to be chemically imbalanced because it's hip. Genetics play a BIG part in behavior and development, you should take a course to see the facts. I'm sure conditioning and the society one grows up in plays a part in it, but I don't think anyone's parents "teaches" them to be gay growing up.
Scientists are still studying homosexuality. I don't think anyone can say that it's definite a choice. Outlaw is right, most heterosexuals don't feel they have to chose to be attracted to the opposite sex. Also why would so many people chose to be gay and subject themselves to horrible bigotry, fewer rights etc.? I think that there may actually some people who do it, and the majority are born that way. That of course is just my guess, based on what inconclusive research I've seen, and the people and friends I've known.
I still don't see the corolation between enjoying hetero sex and desire to propogate the species. Lots of gays and lesbians, myself included, want to have kids. It might not be the conventional way but the end result is the same. It's not like we are an endangered species anyway.
Jorge: My point was that zealots ignore scientific evidence whenever it doesn't line up with their bigoted views, which they claim to find in the Bible. The obsession with finding sin in others, by the way, is very un-Christian. Gay people do not choose to lead what is still considered by a large, ignorant section of our society to be an aberrant lifestyle. Many of them, in fact, live sad, closeted lives due to 'moralists' like yourself. I am heartened though by the progress that's been made with most heteros since I was young, your caveman logic not withstanding. I'm straight by the way (not that there's anything wrong with that), but I have a lot of gay friends. I know it's not easy being gay. And I know they're not gay to please the devil or to upset your grandma. They're just gay. Folks like you made it harder on them. Jesus would not be pleased by this. He hated all bigotry. But, happily, there are less of your kind all the time.
Exactly! Don't you see you just answered your own question! Don't you desire a female to do this with(I'm assuming you said yes...)? What about females? Don't they desire males for intercourse? But what causes these desire? Natural Selection right?!? Those male species that had sex with female species produced offspring that desired the opposite sex also because their parents had genes that gave them the instinct to do the same. Do you not think it is possible to have a gene mix up? Or is heterosexuality something that just "happens" without any gene involvement? Hell your desire to eat greasy food, play sports, and get drunk(if you're into that) are all because of gene regulation.
There are numerous documented instances of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (check out the exhaustive "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity," by Bruce Bagemihl for more info). How does your theory apply to animals who exhibit homosexual behavior? Have they made a conscious decision as well?
Mrs.B above point is right on the mark. Personally, I think without question there are biological factors (could be genetics, but what happens to you in the womb and as an infant affect you biologically as well-- yet are not genetic factors) and social/environmental factors involved in homosexuality just like there is with any other complex human behavior. This is true for virtually all behaviors that have been heavily studied--including such things as alcoholism, drug dependence, desire to seek new stimuli (e.g., rock climbing), as well as most of the most common diseases that kill us (cancers, heart disease, etc). I am not equating homosexuality or heterosexuality or bisexuality or gradients between them as a disorder/disease--just saying most of these things are probably due to a mix of biological and social/environmental factors. Also, just because we can't isolate one gene most responsible for homosexuality is not surprising. It is very few natural variations in human biology (be it most cancers or heart disease) or thoughts or behavior that will probably ever be traced to a single gene or even just a few. Most things are probably influenced by a host of interacting genes that in turn are interacting with a complicated environment so that we will never pinpoint just a few causes. But just because we can’t pinpoint the gene doesn’t mean there isn’t overwhelming evidence that biology is playing a role or maybe even the biggest role. One other aside. Homosexuality isn't best defined as a behavior (men who have sex with men, etc.). Someone who is most intimately attracted to and foremost wants companionship with a person of the same sex is a better definition of a homosexual. Otherwise, would a celibate nun technically be “asexual” because she doesn't choose to have sexual relations? Would a male teenager who doesn’t get any despite his best efforts be “asexual” simply because he isn’t involved in procreation behaviors? Of course not to both questions; being gay is what people are, not what they do. I have heard of people claiming they once had homosexual sex, but now do not (which are some of the testimonials used for the bases for “gay reformer programs”). But I have never heard of a program that changed someone’s identity, who they want to be most close to (physically and/or emotionally), etc.
My belief is that it is more biological than environmental, but that both factors might play a role. As to the environmental factors, I believe that they manifest at such an earlier age, that being gay could not in any sense be deemed a "choice." From what I have always heard, is that gay people usually discover they are gay at the onset of puberity. Finally, isn't ample evidence of homosexual tendencies in the animal kingdom? I know that a male dog I used to own never missed a chance to essentially perform oral sex on any other male dog he encountered. As a straight person with Christian beliefs (and even a fundamentalist upbring), I am nonetheless put off when other Christians preach that practicing homosexuals will not be allowed into heaven. Yes, I know that there is some biblical support that homosexuality is a "sin" (even a reference that homosexuals will be cast in the lake of fire), but I think the limited references in the Bible are overblown in arriving at this conclusion. Perhaps it was the homophobia of the biblical writers, such as Apostle Paul (who also wrote that the women should be quiet in the churches - I don't see this preached nearly as often as the condemnation of homosexuals), creeping into the writing. Interpretations of the Sodom story of destruction are also overblown when intrepreted to mean that God destroyed Sodom because it was allegedly teeming of homosexuals. Finally, Paul was probably primarily repulsed by the Roman homosexual orgies of this time, and accepted practice of men of power having sex with young boys, when he made his remarks towards homosexuality. I cannot accept this as a universal condemnation by God of homosexual relations of any nature, including those between two monogomous adults. And of course, there is no longer the pressing need to procreate and be fruitful, and populate the earth, that there was in biblical times. If you believe homosexuality is a sin because it does not result in procreation, then surely masturbation is as well (i.e. Onan spilled his seed on the ground, which displeased God (which was actually the somewhat unreliable practice of birth control, withdraw, and not masturbation)). The bottom line of my belief, is that the loving God I believe in would not damn a good person for a trait to which he or she is primarily predisposed. He would also not condemn such a person to a life of abstinence (or to the Catholic priesthood ).
There have been identical twins... same genetics, same womb, one gay, one straight. This issue is probably made worse by the fact that our society has linked emotional intimacy with sexual intercourse, to the point that many people think it's a natural outgrowth of that intimacy. (still, it can't be indulged in every time you want it... for example, if I got busy with a male friend while my husband was away, I doubt I could use "biology" as an excuse) As for people who are classified as homosexual these days - do they think gay sex is superior to straight sex? (sorry, have to get a little graphic here) Or do they just feel more emotionally comfortable with the same sex? Also, just because you feel close to another member of your sex and may even want to hug or kiss that person, does the next "natural step" seem to be... anal intercourse or "carpet munching"? Just food for thought... for the record, conservative Christians have no problem with an orientation that feels intimate toward the same sex. The Biblical prohibitions are on certain explicit acts: the belief is that we need to obey God's commands, even if we don't always understand them. We didn't make the world and ultimately we're not the ones running things. It's a really tough issue and I wish there were an easier answer, for the sake of those struggling with it... believe it or not, most of us do have gay friends. What they do is ultimately between them and God...
Apologies to those who've read this before, but here it is again for the bible thumpers and even for the sincere religious people who struggle to reconcile the Bible with this modern world. Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this? I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense. Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself? A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
LOL, Batman. Excellent examples. This demonstrates that certain portions of the Bible are more timely than others.
Your obvious assumption is that a gay relationship is nothing but sex. Is your marriage nothing more than "Hi, honey! Let's have sex again."??? Chances are your feelings for your husband run deeper than just a fixation on sexuality. How is it that homosexuals are any different in your mind? Secondarily, are you attracted to your husband? Do you love him? Do you want to be intimate with him? If the answers are "yes," "yes," and "yes," the result is intimacy which often leads to sexuality. It is a natural extention of our emotional feelings. Conversely, I assume that you have a degree of standards as to whom you find attractive and the qualities a person must posses to cause you to fall in love with them. Are you assuming that gays and lesbians simply should ignore their own standards and adopt others? Would you be willing to marry someone you didn't love and maybe even actively disliked simply because you felt like society would frown on it otherwise? You act as if homosexuality is an inability to control some baser instinct and that gay people choose the gay lifestyle simply to explore some sexual impulse. It could be that, just like the hetero's here, they are simply trying to express their natural feelings of emotion and connection to other humans. By the way, why in God's name are you defining lesbians as "carpet munchers?" Not only is it kinda gross, but it makes the assumption that somehow, female oral sex is wrong. Are you telling me that you discourage your husband from this practice too?
Well here we go again. People these days just can NOT express conservative opinions without being labeled "bigot" or "ignorant". Let me repeat myself: HYPOCRISY AT ITS FINEST. sigh
