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What it means to be “woke”

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by durvasa, Apr 19, 2022.

  1. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    There is a kind of bait and switch going on when people use “woke”. When some are pressed on the meaning, they define it as a radical leftist ideology that is against basic tenets of Western liberalism. Hostile to free speech, free enterprise, free association, etc. Others use it as a way to mock leftist “virtue signaling”. Those are very different things, but ambiguous language serves a purpose of adding connotation that is not warranted.
     
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  2. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    Everytime I see the term "virtue signaling" and "leftist" in the same sentence I get an example of a bank like JP Morgan doing some LGBTQ friendly thing or something. Virtue signaling? Sure....

    But I'd like to know when the largest banks on the planet became leftist. That would be great. Bank execs are finally for redistribution of wealth? That's a good thing!
     
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  3. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    I get the bolded one and can understand it. There are some "radical leftists" that refuse to allow space for any other ideas.

    We know M&M's new color and Lego's new character aren't hostile to anyone or anything. I guess these fall under 'virtue signaling' for those who use the term 'woke' to describe M&M and Lego. I prefer hypocrisy over virtue signaling. Point out the hypocrisy all you want, and it would be a very fair point. The term "virtue signaling" (or "wokism") is often used by those who oppose the underlying virtue itself. In the case of M&M and Lego, it seems like some people are unhappy with the idea of diversity. To me, this attitude is hostile to a positive value and can ultimately undermine free speech and enterprise.

    It's no surprise that the use of 'woke' nowadays can be nonsensical. On one hand, it's used to show opposition to hostility against free speech and enterprise, but on the other hand, it's also used to express hostility towards these same values.
     
  4. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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  5. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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  6. Salvy

    Salvy Member

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    Put Chris Pratt in Black Panther as The Black Panther thou and its racist...
     
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  7. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/03/time-to-end-the-use-of-woke-as-a-pejorative



    Time To End The Use of “Woke” As a Pejorative

    ...

    Each one of the people I have quoted is very confident that critics are being unfair by saying that “woke” has no clear definition. “It’s very clear, how can you deny it?” they reply, and proceed to give an extremely specific definition of wokeness, which they say is obvious. The only trouble is: the definitions contradict each other! It’s not that nobody can give a definition, it’s that there is no generally agreed-upon definition, which is necessary for words to be meaningful instruments of communication.

    Take DeBoer’s definition, which he says is extremely obvious, so much so that anyone who denies it is operating in bad faith. Wokeness, he says, refers to a style of doing (liberal) politics that emphasizes “right thoughts and right utterances” over movement-building. In other words, wokeness does not refer to the belief in systemic injustices, but to a particular way of responding to those injustices that tries to fix our language and interpersonal behavior rather than strike at the root of the problem.

    This is not at all what Matt Walsh means by the term. While Walsh and deBoer would both agree on some of the people who are woke (Robin DiAngelo, under any definition of wokeness, is woke), for deBoer wokeness is more about how you do politics. For Walsh, wokeness is just leftism, and includes the belief that “society is systemically oppressive towards certain supposedly marginalized groups.”

    Here we have a problem: deBoer and Walsh can have a conversation with one another where they both insist wokeness is terrible and has to go. Neither of them likes wokeness. And they might both cite Robin DiAngelo, who is indeed very annoying, as a clear example of what’s wrong with wokeness. But they’ll be using the same word to talk about very different things: deBoer will mean that we should have a more effective radical leftism by focusing on altering “material conditions” rather than eliminating language, while Walsh will be talking about the need to eliminate leftism altogether. Two people could mean entirely different things by, we must end woke-ism (but both think their meaning is completely clear), which is why it’s not a very helpful term.

    The problem here is that “woke,” like “political correctness” (which in many ways it is just the successor term of), is just too vague. It covers too much. If you’re against wokeness, are you against people who believe systemic racism is real? Or are you just against people who “virtue signal” about their anti-racism? DeBoer says that woke-ism prioritizes individual soul-searching over mass movements for policy change. Okay, but then is Black Lives Matter (a mass movement for policy change) woke?

    Take the definition Mandel eventually managed to come up with. She says it’s the belief that “our institutions are built around discrimination” and “all” disparity is a result of discrimination. Wokeness seeks a “redefinition of society” to achieve “equality of group result” and is “enforced by an angry mob.”

    When I read this, the first thing I wonder is: am I “woke”? I wouldn’t say our institutions are built “around” discrimination but that there is a lot of discrimination in our institutions. I wouldn’t say “all” disparities of any kind are the result of discrimination but do think where racial disparities exist, it’s reasonable to have a presumption that observed disparities are unfair and that they may be, at least in part, systemic in origin. “Equality of group result” is too vague for me to say whether I agree with it. And one person’s “angry mob” is another person’s popular protest, so I’m not sure whether I am pro angry mob. Were the George Floyd protests an “angry mob”?

    Briahna Gray, reflecting on her viral exchange with Mandel, said similarly that the whole reason she asked for a definition was that she was trying to understand whether she agreed with Mandel or not. She wasn’t trying to produce a gotcha. She just understands that people understand the term to mean many different things, so if someone doesn’t offer a clear definition, it’s impossible to know what they’re actually talking about when they’re talking about wokeness. Brie is a critic of some of the things that can be included under that label (as I am). But she wouldn’t agree with an anti-“woke” guest if they were using the Matt Walsh definition of wokeness as leftism. (Although note that even Walsh doesn’t offer a workable definition. I’m a leftist who wrote a book called Why You Should Be A Socialist but I don’t believe in “collective inherited guilt” or think heterosexual white men—I am one myself—are Satans.)

    ...

     
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  8. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    And in marketing we call that marketing. Go figure.

    Anything that helps you make a buck goes. Call it what you want.
     
  9. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

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    Woke is a very simple concept if it is nonsensical then it’s woke…it is exactly that and it really shouldn’t be a political thing-
     
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  10. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Why not just use nonsensical instead?

    Anyhow, with that definition, the popular social media usage of woke is itself woke.
     
  11. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    Show a prior post of yours where you show an example of a wokeism and it's not something you would label from the left.
     
  12. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    Look at what this racist POS said in 2009 after Obama was inaugurated



    All these people complaining about "woke" @tinman are nothing but racist bigots. They've been this way for decades and are using the word woke to hide behind their bigot views.

    Don't be fooled. These folks are nothing but bigots including you especially @tinman
     
  13. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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    Woke is when you are white but identify as black
    [​IMG]
     
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  14. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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    woke is when you watch Disney plus to see fairy tale midgets in Willow but you end up with lesbians
     
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  15. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Member

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    Woke is when you ban or boycott disney because you don't like that a lot of people who work there are gay.
     
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  16. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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    Woke is pretending to care about lesbians in fantasy show about midgets
    @Salvy
     
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  17. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Member

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    She is thinking about "reparations" perhaps lol, seriously why not ? If people can self identify genders what is stopping them from age, race etc?
     
  18. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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  19. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Member
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    pretty sure Madonna needs reparations from her plastic surgeon

     
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  20. dobro1229

    dobro1229 Member

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    If the MCU heroes were all white by definition wouldn’t that be taken as racist by excluding all minorities? Don’t you think that excluding minorities in the past has been… you know… kind of an issue in the past that has been frowned upon?

    Would you say that casting Ariel with a black actress is now excluding all Anglo Saxon representation from Disney Princess movies??

    Do you not understand how easily your analogy falls apart onto into in you attempt to find a reverse racism gotcha?? It’s simply inclusion vs exclusion. Disney wants ALL people to spend money on their product. Contrary to the belief of some, black and brown people sometimes have money to spend on their kids too.

    If you have any institution that is whites only… yeah you are a freaking racist.
     
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