What is your view of the Creator (if you believe in that kind of thing)?

Interesting stuff Franchiseblade. Its been awhile since I've read any Stephen Jay Gould and I think I'm going to want to take a look at some of his stuff again.

This is exactly what I was trying to explain in the IMAX thread regarding the difference between science and faith and why you shouldn't try to justifiy one with the means of the other.

As for the piece on episodic evolution I found that really interesting too but it does raise some big questions in my mind.

This point is I think is the potential achilles heel of episodic evolution. It seems to me that the most likely reason for lack of intermediate forms is that the chance of any given dead organism turning into a fossil and that fossil eventually being discovered is extremely remote. Wouldn't it be more likely that in some of these areas where we see a jump from one morphology to another in the fossil record that those intermediate fossils haven't been found?

Also I've understand that many of these jumps in the fossil record occur in an incredibly short geologic time so the presumption is that there must have been a spontaneous change from one form to the other. It occurs to me though that we can't necessarily presume that jump occured rapidly because we can't say for certain how long the lineage of he new form has been around. For instance if several million years from now a paleontologist were to find the fossilized skeleton of a dog and a sea lion and found the sea lion to be from a slightly later period than the dog but very close he might presume that the sea lion descended from the dog since they have many common morphological features. He might further deduce that there was a rapid change from dog to sea lion since they were so close in time. Without any other evidence of sea lions or sea lion like animals older than the dog this would seem to be a rational conclusion.

In general the idea of rapid jumps in evolution make sense to me. I can imagine sudden shifts in environment or an increase in mutagenic agents might spur rapid changes. If I remember correctly the fossil record shows a mass extinction followed by a rapid introduction of new organisms when oxygen became prevalent and that there is evidence of major global environmental change at the time of the Cambrian Explosion.

Perhaps from us polluting the atmosphere and seas so much there might be an episodic change to organisms that thrive on methane, vinyl chlorides and ultraviolet light.

 

I've read about how modern physics seems to be matching traditional cosmological concepts. While I find these very interesting I'm a bit hesitant to read too much into them. There are several creation myths and depending on how allegorically you read them you could say that any of them correspond to what modern science shows us. For instance the Hindu creation myth of Shiva churning the sea of milk from which the world formed like butter is the same as the idea of the Earth condensing out of a nebular halo.

That said I find the idea of potentiality in nothingness becoming somethingness amazing and does fit with the idea Buddhist creation but I also thinks it throws a wrench into the concept of karmic causality. Some of the theories of dark energy is that vacuum energy might be playing a role in it. So while it makes sense to trace a continuous line of causality and interdependence all the way back to the Big Bang and beyond te presence of vacuum energy and virtual particles throws that for a loop by allowing completely spontaneous and random events to interfere with the chain of causality.

At the same time to presume the Big Bang was a manifestation of potentiality what caused it to manifest itself? One description I've heard is that prior to the Big Bang there was perfection in terms of a homogenous nothingness, in Buddhist terms this could be equated to Nirvana. At some point there was an imperfection that led to the creation of universe out of the vacuum. To liken this in the Buddhism to the sudden awareness of self causing us to create a duality where none existed. So he question I have is what caused that imperfection? Was there a triggering agent or is it all random?

 

I think it might be the achilles heel unless you compare the transitionary fossils to the total fossils found. Now it is possible that the total fossils found isn't enough to be an accurate representative sample. In which case that would be a weakness. But if the fossils found are a representative sample of existing fossils then it would be possible to make a determination.

 

I believe you have misunderstood. The comment was about the way natural selection was once explained, and the flaw with that explanation. The biology involved is sound, and I think you guys are agreeing on the likelihood of that.

 

I love those "Jesus is my homeboy." shirts if that means anything.

 

I believe in some type of higher being.....I mean someone/thing had to create this world, right? I'm personally against organized religion though. I think each person inherently knows the difference between right and wrong, and that is what you should live your life by. I've tried many times to go to church, but I usually just leave angry and get nothing out of it. To me, my faith is a private thing. I pray, I ask for forgiveness...I strive to be a better person. I don't feel like I need to go to a church or practice a specific religion to do this. At the same time, I have nothing against people that are able to go to a service and feel like that makes them stronger spiritually.....If it works for you great, it just doesn't do it for me. Another problem I have with some religions is that some followers believe the religion they practice is the "right" one. I just think that is ridiculous. What gives anyone the right to say that their faith is right and others are wrong? Like I said, I think that following what you know within is right/wrong is what makes someone a good person. If that's not enough, then I don't know.....that's just what I believe.

Sorry if that got a little off topic, just wanted to explain my views.

 

I think all of the worlds religions are just different ways to make man feel better about dying. Just my opinion.

 

I think its a reasonable presumption that we've found a representative sample but it is still a presumption.

 

It beats thinking we're just going to be fodder for worms.

 

I would add "and giving one's life purpose/meaning" to the above sentence.

 

Yeah, I guess you could add that. Whatever makes a person be a beter person is OK with me.

 

"Energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but it can be converted from one form to another and it can be transferred from one object to another."

First Law of Thermodynamics = Concept for Existence of God

Pure Energy = God


Everything written in theological texts? Allegory.

 

I'm agnostic. Since most people think it is someone who is confused or undecided, here is a good definition.

...the key point being that it is immoral to believe without evidence.

 

Unless you hold no prejudice against worms.

 

If there is a Creator, there are no guarantees we will witness it in any form or be closer to it in another plane of existence. I've heard some people's idea that Hell is not the fire and brimstone in scripture but rather the absence of God's love. It's probably the best answer I've heard about Hell. Yet if God is everywhere, how can you not feel his love? Maybe it's out of respect for your beliefs (aetheists end up as fertilizer), but I'd rather think that a God with Heaven would do what's best for you instead of what you'd want.

Then there is the debate between God and time. It's presently believed that God witnesses as we all do in the same scope of time, wherein God judges our actions in realtime and tallies it up at the very end. Centuries ago, Classical Theists argued that since God is all reality, It should also transcend time. God is immutable, unchanging and unlearning. Just because we live in the scope of time doesn't mean that God follows the same rules, it rather appears as so. If that is the case, then God would know (if it wanted to) all about our life even when we haven't experienced it. It would be predestiny behind the personal perception of free will. If God knows all our actions before we do, is it even fair to sanction the idea of eternal damnation? Then would it be fair for the living to swallow the idea of someone like Hitler eventually reaching a Heaven? It would greatly question the concept of sin.

I haven't researched much into sin and its history (I would be interested if anyone spared the time), but our civilization is consumed with known and unknown exploitation at different levels that it really isn't our place to judge or ask. Is the exploitation of animals for the goal of eliminating diseases and bettering humanity still sinful? Is expelling noxious gases that hampers the health and life expectancy of the people in its radius not as bad as crippling somebody in person intentionally? I personally don't believe so, but I'm a human being who wants to live my life to its fullest. I could ask for forgiveness, but I'd still be perpetrating the harm. I'd also have to spend time to explore what harm am I actually doing. It's easier for me to let someone else figure it out or then weigh that risk on a non-spiritual level. Many people can wonder how I could pose pollution or vivisection with heinous crimes upon humanity. Pollution and vivisection are examples of unknown crimes that are socially beneficial but come at some cost and expense. Furthermore, they can think I'm crazy to think that murderers, rapists or non-believers who sin will reach some form of heaven. Isn't it a Christian realization that God is in all of us? Isn't it a belief that no person can be denied salvation? The theme of original sin and the concept that humans are flawed sinful creatures rings throughout the entire Bible, so how far off is it really? We have laws for crimes on the physical level, and we still need an answer to our personal meaning of life. There is no slippery slope if eternal damnation does not exist. Fear has never been the best teacher.

Who is to say that dying and returning to the earth will physically bring you as close to God in a spiritual sense as the concept of heaven? For those close to imminent death, they are forced to accept the inevitable. Through all the hell and worrying they went through in fear of death, there is solace that they return where they came from. Science tries to explain that light at the end of the tunnel, but I don't think that light has any significance. It's that feeling of survivors who are revived after momentary flatlines that should be studied. I don't believe any who remembered were ever terrified. The process of dying can be arduous, but the death itself is a different matter.

I think I've rambled enough....

 

People are looking for God? That would be like a drug dealer looking for a police station.

Are you a good person? That is a better question to debate. I find it interesting that Buddists and philosophers and agnostics even talk about God.

It is amazing how self righteous people are who don't believe in God.

A creator who winks at sin makes for the best god for sinful men.

But that is a god created in the imagination of man.

Anybody can create a god that fits their fancy, but it takes a Creator to make the complexity of amino acids, dna, the human eye, give life, reasoning, conscience and imagination. Man might be able to destroy it, but only a God could create it.

Billions and Billions of years ago is the code word for ' I wasn't there and I really don't have a clue, so I'll make up something that fits my morality'.

 

If you are familiar with reformed Christian theology, that is basicly my view of the Creator.

 

I haven't been in here in a while...


What if the Romans were right? with Zeus and all of that stuff. I have always thought that would be funny if we died and found ourselves going across a river and all of that mess.

 

I'm very prejudiced against worms. I'm a wormist

 

Put isn't it the height of self-righteousness to say, "Even though I am but a mere human I know the will of God."

Perhaps its because I incline to Buddhism but I don't believe in moral absolutes or try to pretend I now the will of God. I believe in Karma and that what goes around comes around. If I lead a compassionate life I believe others will have compassion for me.

Other than that I can't control anything.