That's what I was talking about. If that society they live in rejects them (for their moderate or fundamental beliefs), they they are more likely to join those extreme groups (they forget about the moderate views and just become extreme). Now, I'm talking about the ones ARE susceptible. And not *all* Mulisims. I'm only addresssing a particular condtion that exist in the world today. Even if you step back a little and just look at the way the world kinda associates Mulims with "terrorist." This does have an effect on how the *good* Musims feel towards the US and the rest of the world. Even if those people never act out their anger, the stigma still exists. P.S. Regading your comment about my view being "primitive." I'm aware of "Post-Modern" Iran, Egypt and United Arab Emirates. I wasn't referring to modern middle-east. I was only addresss conditions that cause extremistim to grow. That's all.
Dude, I am not a muslim, but I look (more: looked when I was a kid, not so much now) foreign myself (Asian), and I never experienced any friggin' discrimination whatsoever, other than other little kids calling me "Chinese" in elementary school, for which I beat them up and that was the end of that. I don't even know where you get your little discrimination fantasies from.
Hmmm....maybe you should talk to some of them. Get their views about how Muslims are viewed throughout the world (some of it jusified, some of it not). But it does exist. I'm surprised that you would actually say this. The world is a big place. You can't be everwhere at the same time. There are things that go on that you didn't observe. But you actually have to talk to people that are willing to talk about it openly.
Neither can you. (Plus, not that it matters, but I think I have come as close as anyone during the past year to that ). Obviously, there are stupid people who are ignorant and will say racist things, but you make it seem like it is a widespread thing that is somehow rooted in the culture of European countries, which is simply untrue. Also, you make it seem like this supposed discrimination is the cause of people becoming extremists. The world is more complex than you are obviously able to grasp.
Ah...but the differnce is that I have to actually talked to them. Don't just look at it through your eyes; saying "Well, I haven't experienced discrimination, therefor one one else has." Nah uh...you misunderstood (re: rooted in the culture of European countries) The root causes stem from the dictatorships that foster the fundamental cultures in the first place. It's what happens AFTER the fact, when some muslims venture outside of their lands that I'm addressing (when they experience conditions in Europe not favorable to their culture/religion). And that's why a lot of these groups are formed in OTHER countries, an not in Afghanistan and Iraq. Think about it...Why would these groups form in countries that supposedly give them democracy? Why is there still a hatred? How is it being feed. Shouldn't they feel more welcomed? I think it is you that is blind to these conditions. I mean, are you just going to brush them off as being "crazies?"
dude, seriously.....i have been to TONS of church conferences...among many mainstream denominations...i have never once heard anythng remotely resembling a comment that segregates out a certain portion of the population and refers to them as "the enemy" in some political sense with a call to action. never, ever, never. i've heard "sin" labelled as an enemy...i've heard "the evil one" labelled as an enemy. but i've never heard of a summit of mainstream Christian leaders citing a group of people as the enemy....not in my lifetime. i'm sure it happened in the 1500's though.
So what makes you in your infinite wisdom know that I have never talked to Muslim people? Don't make me start feeling like I am arguing with an imbecile.
You said you knew some in your elementary school. Ok, and? If you talk to a muslim and they say, "Yes, I feel that the world does view Musims in a bad way. I do feel discrinated sometimes." What would you say then? "Get over it?" Or maybe you'd just brush it off as an aberration? What? Also, it seems as though all you can do is react to criticism regarding Europe (that's what this is really about to you, right?). Well, that doesn't do well for adding to this discussion. All you are doing is being defensive on personal issues (defense of Germany?). These conditions do exist in the world regarding how Muslims are viewed whether you want to admit or not. I ask you this: What is wrong with the Muslim religion? Now it's your turn. I dare you to give us your theory.
By the way, I love the way you spin things. You say that discrimination doesn't exist because YOU haven't seen it for yourself. Then, I say, you can't be everywhere at the same time. Then, you accuse me of the same. Then, I tell you that I have talked to Muslims that feel discrimination (And they tell me about their friends and families experiences). I tell you this as proof that discrimination does exist among Muslims (good muslims). And you come back with "So what makes you in your infinite wisdom know that I have never talked to Muslim people?" like if that's supposed to prove that discrination doesn't exist? Please...spare me the "imbecile" accusation. Pretend we are having a discussion face-to-face. No where in my posts did I call you an "idiot" or "imbecile." So do me a favor and show me the same respect. Save those comments for the 15 year olds kids.
David, Discrimination occurs everyhwere. Not just for Muslim kids, but also blacks, mexicans, asians, indians, jews. Not just in Europe but also here. I can testify that there were racist WHITE teachers who straight up discriminated against non whites. It didnt send those kids into any sort of terrorist activities or whatnot. You are saying that most of the terrorists are people that got the "we are different speech" at home and went overseas, where they were made to feel like crap, and later on easily turned into terrorists. I dont agree with that because I have cousins in 3 different European countries who were all born in either Saudi Arabia, or Dubai, and one was born in India. They felt the discrimination, but they knew that others that were not white also felt it. It wasn't a reason for them to go crying home, and join extremist groups. Your theory on people that are excluded, are the ones that retalliate is probably better suited for the "gothic kids", and the typical Kid that is made fun of everyone at school. Trust me, I do know tons of Muslims in 'Europe', Australia, and Asia, and they don't feel discriminated enough to be driven to do something as retarted as join the Al Qaeda, or other groups.
I acknowledge that. But when you mix the stigma against mulsims, their fundamental teachings, you'll have a hot bed for recruitment. I'm talking about how THESE groups are formed. Not wheter or not other cultures (black, white, mexican, etc...) experience discrimination. I never said it was a justified reason. Or that *all* do this. I was explaining a condition of WHY some of THESE groups form in other countires. It is THEY that do use discrimination as a catalyst/reason. I'm not saying that I agree with it. What about the ones that do? What then? The moment that extremist groups start becoming a problem for the whole world, you have to take notice. So, while you say that none of your friends are "r****ded" enough to join extremist groups. Does that mean that extremist groups are NOT a problem today? It's gotten big enough for it to be a problem, to start asking questions about how they are formed, why, when, who...etc... The U.S retaliating against another country can only do so much. It's only a temporary "solution." Sooner or later, you have to look at the root causes of the problem.
But what you are saying seems to be some theory that you just coughed up. I know that there is discrimination all over, BUT I just don't see how this leads to terrorism. the only place that happens I would say is Palestine, where peoples families are killed, and that just in their minds justifies the revenge.(Even though this is not allowed in Islam)
Well, that's the big puzzle about "oppression (perceived or not)." It's always personal to that particular group. They feel it, therefore it's important to THEM. Again, I'm not saying that it's "right" or "justifed revenge" (in the case of the Palestine issue). I just pointing out how it comes about. It's a cycle. By the way, check this out... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...104-3412009-1575955?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Removed the Emeka Okafor sig, just for you! Considering that he'll be entering the NBA next year. Now you can start harping on OTHERs that have signatures longer/busier than mine was. By the way, "half this thread?" If I removed ALL my sig, we'd still have 6 pages.
Absolutely was not accusing Christians, and have myself been to MANY Islamic speeches and never heard a negative word uttered towards Christians. The thing that you were talking about in the summit reffered to Jews, and that's a different story altogether. Rocketman Tex, Care to elaborate? The same thing is stated in Islam and Juddaism. Islam says its our land, Juddaism says its your land.
You argue like one. And I would tell you the exact same thing face-to-face. Now if you were to feel discriminated by that, so be it .
I did not ask this question and start this thread. However, if you ask me and want to hear my answer: I believe there is nothing inherently wrong with the Muslim religion per se, at least not more or less than with the other big religions. What is wrong with the Muslim religion nowadays is simply that there are more militant extremists who commit criminal acts in its name than you will find in any other religion. The causes for that are surely complex, but that is the state of things nowadays. And I do not appreciate your making up excuses which make it sound like poor Muslim moderates are being made into extremists by evil European societies. That's pure BS.
