It's not nonsense. It's a condition in the world we live in today. The question is, what are we going to do about it? Keep things as they are, hoping that they get better? Or figure out the reasons that extremist recruit members? And why? Then, address it. I'd sure like you to show me when the hatred was started (in your cause an effect theory). What, are you going to tell me the exact date that all this anti-muslim stuff started (justified or not) It's been so long that those lines have been blurred, and there no use in pointing fingers. It doesn't matter anymore. We have figureout the causes today, and then addresss those; be it social or political. The military can only do so much. Now, that being said...think about the moderates kids that were NOT extreme to start with, but end up moving toward those groups after moving to Europe and become extreme there. Those European countries are a lot more nationalistic than the USA. I'm not even talking about religion now, I'm taking about human nature. If you oppress people, be it with your suspicion or discriminate (just like the black in the 50-70), there will be some form of rebellion. You can point fingers about origin and then bomb them until the cows come home. It will change nothing, execpt create more hate.
That's right. Christianity as a whole has "moved on." It's become post-modern. Thanks to Liberal Democracy. The middel-east and Islam has not. The rulers still want to rule like they were back in 700AD.
You're right. I tried a Google search and found little in the past year. On Planned Parenthood's site (yes, bias, blah blah), it has lists of bomb threats and various shootings that occurred at sites within the past few months (usually while the place was closed, though). But during the early 1990's, there were a lot more. It was a dark period for anti-abortion activists. It doesn't mean all conservative Christians are bad. And that was ONLY 10 years ago. Compare "today vs. today"... so 10 years ago was a completely different era? What about when the Irish Republican Army terrorized the UK in the name of religion? That was a looong time ago, right? Anyway, that's not the point. I don't want to derail this thread, as I think it's important for people to realize that the vast, vast majority of Muslims do not agree with the principles shown on television every day.
there's so many things i would dispute here...but i think we're just talking semantics. so i'll just say, "sure," and move on!
I'm from Germany. So explain to me how (nowadays) "those European countries are a lot more nationalistic than the USA". I am curious to hear your theory how my society made poor moderate Muslims change into suicide bombers. This should be interesting.
No..it's awful...and 10 years is clearly "today." But my point is it happens with almost zero frequency. Literally...10 freaking years. These events happen everyday involving radical Islam, and on a much grander scale. That's not even a good comparison. The frequency implies more acceptance of these ideas by a higher percentage of folks who would label themselves as Muslim, even if you might disagree with their takes on the Koran. Again...I don't know the percentages. You say "vast" majority...but I have no frame of reference for that at all. I can't speak intelligently on that in the least. My perception isn't helped by the claims of Jews as the enemies at very mainstream Islamic conferences...it's not helped by the sheer numbers of events that we see daily...it's not helped by the, "well if you were in their position you'd be blowing up little kids on school buses, too" sentiments I've read on this very message board before. Seriously...not trying to be a jackass...but this is my perception...this is what we see from day to day. If a rational person is only supposed to base their thoughts on mere observation, where does this leave us? I could try to be politically correct, I guess....but that's less than honest.
Ah, yes. You turn my words from "change into extremist" to "change into suicide bombers." Nice... Stop blowing things out of porportion. I'm not saying this is justified or that it's the only causes. I'm just merely pointing a condition of how some of these groups recruit. I can tell you are "angry" because I included "Germany" in my post. Please don't be like a Neo-Con American, that if someone says one thing bad about the US, they freak out? "What? You dare say something bad about MY country! Damn you to hell!" etc, etc... To expound... I said that these young kids go Spain, Germany, UK, France (Europe). And find themselves excluded by discriminatory pressures. And those condition WILL make some of those kids turn to alternate extreme groups. This does not me that they turn into "suicide bombers." Like you so conveniently embellished. Now, remember. These kids already were taught some form of radical Islam in their home country. But, they become MORE extreme after moving away from their country because of the discriminatory pressures. That's cause an effect for you, on a micro-scale. And these conditions DO exist. As far as nationalism. Think of nationalism in the early 1900. I'm not taking about patriotism. That being said, I hope you don't believe that the USA is more nationalistic than Europe? Please....The USA is in the forefront on homogeny and the melting-pot. European countries, although adopted democracy, still have a senses of nationalistic pride tied to race. It's that way in France, Germany, and Spain. Sure, they welcome outsiders. I'm just saying that they are more nationalistic compared to the USA. That within itself creates an exclustionary feeling. Especially toward foreign Muslims. Again, back to current conditions.
in 2003 a guy drove a van into the front entrance of Planned Parenthood here in Houston. He told the deputy constable the crash was deliberate and was to "stop the killing" while not as severe as a bomb and no one was hurt, it had the same desired effect and could have caused serious damage. the guy who did it, Frank Bird, served a one year federal prison term in 1994 for throwing a bottle and making death threats at a protest of another clinic here in Houston.
Please describe the discriminatory pressures you are talking about. Have you even been to Europe? Dude...
Yes, I've been to Europe and the U.K. And you need to talk to some young muslim kids in your country about how they feel on a daily basis. Why don't you ask a few. Then, you'll get a better understanding of "discriminatory pressures." They can be subtle. And not just in the Europe. It exist here in the US too. So, talk to them. Find out for yourself. Get to know them. Not extemist. Just your normal everyday Muslim. Going to work, making a living, paying their bills. Ask them if they feel "discriminatory pressures." And I'm still waiting for you to say that the USA is more nationalistic than Eupope. Forget the "rolleyes" as a rebut. P.S. I meant to write, "France" not "Francis (in my quote above)" Ooops.
MadMax, What in "Islam" do you equate with the bombing of an abortion clinic? More Muslims become terrorists because more Muslims than Christians or Jews are opressed in today's world. That is the summary of what is going on. As for the "Jewish enemy" stuff... Puh-lease... Don't act as if this only happens on one side. The Jewish are the enemy because they are taking the holy land. What happens if Muslims decide to take over the Vatican... How would you react? Doesn't that make Muslims the enemy? There is no argument here: There are tons of Muslim terrorists relative to other religions. But there should be no argument here either: Muslims are more opressed than other groups.
Earlier, to make a point, I had compared Muslim terrorists to Christian abortion clinic bombers. Probably not the best comparison, but it was the first to come to mind. I just don't think there are any more Muslim extremists than Christian extremists. Percentages are gonna be the same. Human nature is the same everywhere. Only difference between a Christian extremist and a Muslim extremist is that one is gonna be distracted by American Idol, Britney Spears and non-issues like gay marriage before they remember what they're pissed off about. The other will not.
DavidS, Can you explain to me your side on this whole issue of being oppressed and whatnot. I am totally lost. Something about European Society.... Please explain this.
Look around for articles regarding life as a young muslim within European countries (not only in America). They talk about being excluded from their adopted country. Not necessarily, "oppressed" But rather a stigmatism. A discriminatory pressure. It's subtle. But it's there. Part of this stigma is true (due to middle-eastern conflicts for the last 50 years), but the other part is perceived (kind of a stereotype; muslim=terrorist, etc, etc...). This can foster a hotbed of recruitment for extreme groups (angry young men). I mean, if you are deemed an "outcast" within a particular country, you will be ripe for recruitment into a group that will accept you with open arms: by the extremist "cult like" groups (political version). What's sad, is that these young kids visit countries outside of their own hoping for a better life (democracy?). Some of them end up experiencing discrimination due to their apperance or religion/traditional dress. Thus, they are attracted to *any* group that will accept them. But, they end up learning more hate. It's kind of a cycle. All started by the dictatorships back home. They leave their country moderates, but end up becoming extremist in *other* countries. The pain of NOT being accepted into a society will drive some of these kids to extremes. That's why the studies are being done in surrounding European countries to the middle-east. Not just "in" the middle-east.
After reading your post, I must ask.... Have you visited a Middle Eastern country in the last 5 to 10 years? Your view of Middle Easterners seems to be veeeeery very *for lack of better word* primitive. Middle Easterners who live outside don't do it for "democracy" as you state. Sure, there will be exceptions, but it's probably among the last on a list of reasons why they live outside. Also, what's is the Islamic/traditional dress? If you're talking about the kandoora (ong white robe-like thing) then I believe your'e wrong because veeeeeeeeery few wear it when living outside. Again, there will be the exception, but it's just that... an exception. However, I do agree with your point that young people who study outide their country and are rejected by that society strongly tend to joining a group that welcomes them - almost whichever group that may be, and unfortunately in Muslim cases, it's terrorist groups. GreenVegan, Although I agree that deep down every religion would yield the same amount of terrorists given identical circumstances, the fact remains, unfortunately, that the circumstances are far worse for Muslims which is why I think and many would agree that Islam has more terrorists than other groups. Disclaimer: That's not to say Islam yields these groups. That just means these people happen to be Muslim and their individual choice is to pin their actions on Islam.
I had plenty of muslim kids in my elementary school and high school and they never got discriminated against. They were members of our football teams, they now have regular jobs in the community I grew up in and nothing like what you are talking about happened. We have a few million Turks in Germany, mostly Muslim, and problems are quite limited so far. And saying the USA is less nationalistic than Europe, and European countries have a nationalism based on racism is just something you cannot back up.
IMO, there are venues for Christian extremism to flourish and some of that has carried to the mainstream. While an open form of government allows its influence to be mitigated, if people want to listen they will. The history of the Arabs is pretty bad and continues to be. They have no national identity. Their rulers are petty and distrustful of each other. Their greatest resource, which should've provided them with ungodly riches, doesn't seem to reach the common person. And their third holiest land was siezed from them and a western satellite was put in place and legitimized by a supposedly representative world body. Change the leaders, give the people a choice, and let them develop their infrastructure without foreign entanglements. That would most likely reduce the amount of violent extremists in the long run at the expense of a very bloody beginning. The neoconservative movement would look attractive if not for it's insistence on unconditional Israeli support and interference from oil interests. Yes, there are rich extremists and well off immigrants. My explanation is that they feel for the suffering of their common brothers. They realize how good they have it, and their identity compels them to research the politics of their native lands. I had a discussion with a friend about how Hezbollah was a terrorist group listed by the State department. He countered by saying that Hezbollah was a group of freedom fighters liberating Lebanon from Israel. The terrorists tactics were used in order to achieve an end they wouldn't have had through conventional and costly means. I still thought they were terrorists, but I could understand his viewpoint. He didn't hate the victims of terrorism, but he didn't want to see more Muslims die. It was a totally irrational but emotional feeling. Many people have reasoned upon similar feelings, i.e. the death penalty. Sure Muslims have sparked the most fear and media reported violence. But they're not standing on the same ground as Christianity is in today. Honest debate of the Muslim religion would be legitimized if they had the living quality we enjoy.
You can't change the leaders. Leaders are not "chosen" here, and that's the way we like it in the Gulf. Leaders are "chosen" in Iran, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Pakistan. I forgot what the word is for having a government seperate from religion, but that's not the case here. In your world, religion and politics are two categories. In Islam, EVERYTHING is a subcategory of Islam, even politics. There is an Islamic way to appoint a government, and this will not change in the near future. It's been, IMO, the most succesful method around. I agree with you though that opression is the main cause of "Muslim" terrorists, and a debate can't be legitamized unless all factors were equal (opression, poverty, etc..) as I said in my previous post.
Why is this still being discussed? It's quite clear that humans have used all sorts fo excuses for violence, including, but certainly not limited to, just about every religion. So what question is remaining? Whether one religion incites violence a little more than another? It's rather ironic. You have some extremists in the religion who distort it for violence. Then you have effected parties using blaming the religion for the violence (as opposed to understanding underlying grievances that created the environment). Both sides use the religion as an excuse.
Sir Jackie Chiles, I'm not saying *all* muslims. I was just pointing out a condition of the stigma that exist with regards to young moderate mulimis; How they are recruited *outside* of the middle-east; and why. True, some of them were *already* disenchanted (extreme) about their own culture back home and ended up feeding of the *organized* extreme groups that exists in these other countries. That's what I was talking about. I wan't implying that *all* muslims are recipients of discrimination. But I would say that there are a lot that do feel this. Also, if you are referring to Muslims that are already liberal thinkers (re: muslim kids in my elementary school). Well, sure. Those kids will less likely be enticed by extremist groups, even though they still do feel negative grumbling toward the US; the difference with them is that they just keep it to themselves (or discuss America among friends), as opposed to acting out in violence. But I wasn't talking about those that seem to blend into their societies. What about immigrant that don't? They are targets for recruitment. Those extreme groups will use those kids for political agendas. By the way, you know those kids in your elementary school? You should ask them if they ever experienced discrimination, or if they knew of other muslims that did.
