I was interested in reading your response to some British Muslims thinking that it was still OK for the U.S. to suffer more attakcs. In regards to the Israel - Palestinian issue that you mentioned: It is a bad situation with blame to be placed on both sides. It has taken years for some to acknowledge that Israel <i>exists</i> and there are still some who will only be happy when it doesn't.
Honestly I don't think I can justify their way of thinking, Its sad that they think this way, but let me take a whiff at it anyways. Here is the thing, Many Britishers were against the fact that the Britain agreed to back America in its so called War on Terror. They were saying that the war was not justified etc. etc. Well England still backed up USA, and I guess these people are still pissed off at the fact that USA is brainwashing their country and in a way forcing their countrymen into a battle that was never theirs. Thus justifying the hatred. Its sad that the hatred is so much that they would actually want an episode such as 9-11 occur again... plus this is a stat of 500 people. Even I could find 500 christians who want to blow up their school, or who still are racist agains our african counterparts, or are neo-nazi's etc etc... Doesn't really show up well for teh other billions out there now does it.
wrong. http://www.asianweek.com/2001_11_23/opinion_bangladesh.html "The festival of the Goddess Durga in October is normally the high point of the Bengali Hindu cultural calendar. But this year for thousands of Hindu families in Bangladesh, there was no festival and no rejoicing. Instead, gangs of Islamic extremists torched their homes, raped women, poisoned ponds and attacked temples. At first, many explained the savagery as a post-electoral revenge spree. Hindus in Muslim-majority Bangladesh typically support the Awami League party, which lost in October’s national elections. But the scale and ferocity of the recent violence — which has affected some 4 million people, according to the popular daily newspaper Janakantho — is raising the specter of Talibanization in a country usually regarded as a moderate Muslim land."
Sure pull something out of the archives... Where are those papers from days of the Crusades. " raising the specter of Talibanization in a country usually regarded as a moderate Muslim land." See, they themselves say A MODERATE MUSLIM LAND...
Wow. Usually I never come in here, but I saw this and thought I'd respond. If people would read and understand Jeff's post on the first page, I think that would be great. Okay, the things I feel haven't been addressed: Jihad It means "holy struggle". It can be interpreted as a "holy war" on a macroscopic level, but it's better usage is as a jihad against the self and Satan. An attempt to take control of your soul and reclaim it for God. "Why do people beat themselves with chains?" Why do people recreate the crucifixion on film? Why do people do the stations of the Cross in Rome? Why do people re-enact Good Friday and Easter Sunday? I don't necessarily agree with it, but hey, it's there. It's an affirmation of faith for some people. bamaslammer's various "Koranic" translations Where are you getting your translation? That's awful. The web provides terrible translations. There are some English translations which are considered better than others; I think the one you've chosen is awful. Read the Old Testament. Lots of love there. "What does the Quran say about Christians and Jews?" See, this is the funny part. Strictly speaking, Christians and Jews ARE NOT NON-BELIEVERS! They are NOT "infidels"! In the Quran, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are part of a larger group called the "Ahl al-Bayt", or "People of the Book". This IS defined in the Quran. These People of the Book are those who have received revelations from God through holy messengers, which include Moses and Jesus. Both of these prophets are mentioned in the Quran. Both stories ARE related in the Quran. "Muhammed was a conqueror"; "Islam conquers lands" Muhammed was not a conqueror; historically, the taking of Mecca was an act of self-defense. The Quran states no attacks should occur unless it's in self-defense. As for the quick spread of Islam after Muhammed's death throughout Africa and towards southeast Asia... those were political acquisitions done with traditional war. From what I have read, there is NO proof that people were required to convert to Islam. (Gee, were people forced to convert during the Spanish Inquisition? What happened if they didn't?) In fact, Islam is NOT a proselytizing faith. Judaism is NOT a proselytizing faith. Christianity IS. Maybe that's why Christians traditionally think that the only way anyone would become a Muslim is through force. Keep in mind that while Christian Europe was going through the Dark Ages, the Islamic Empire kept learning alive by translating texts and performing the intellectual pursuits which ultimately funneled BACK to Europe and led to the Enlightenment and Renaissance. Gene Peterson's propaganda quote BINGO. That's why Iraq is now so critical to the US/Western world's efforts to democratize the region. However, this effort is, as bamaslammer would say, "built upon sand" since the stated reason for going in was BS. You may not think so, but what do you think the Middle East thinks? Iran Note that Iran was slowly moving in exactly the direction the West desires until Gulf War II. Yes, the mullahs were attempting to push back, but the liberal groups were gaining strength. JayZ - "why blow yourself up when you can leave and go work?" Where do you hear most about suicide bombers? Israel you say? Are Palestinians allowed to work their way up in Israel? No, they're not. They're relegated to menial jobs. The security fence being built (which I'm for, actually, just not in lands Israel does not occupy) CUTS OFF people from the jobs JayZ sees as essential to survival. Simply put, it's Apartheid all over again. 10% of British Muslims agree with Bin Laden's tactics. F' them. They're sick for even thinking that. I'm sure that's a political response as opposed to one which thinks logically about what their religion requires. If you ask a conservative Christian whether it's right to kill someone, they will say "Absolutely not." Now ask them whether it's okay to bomb an abortion clinic, possibly killing nurses or doctors... Do you think 0% will say "It's not okay"? "Islam is going through a dark ages." I think this is true. It all goes back to Jeff's post. That is the problem. DaDa and everyone else - I hope this thread has been enlightening in some way. I know there are Muslims who are in the news everyday coming across as a bunch of wackos, and they ARE. Normal Muslims feel that this very small minority is crazy, too.
You should post more often. LOL! Yep... But of course our Crusading President's favorite phrase about bombing *other* countries is, "Hey, collateral damage. Watcha gonna do? They were evil anyways. Dont worry 'bout it"
Oh crap! Did I type that out loud? I meant to keep all my old man disillusionment to myself. No sense in hastening it for others. Dream on young ones.
Well, I can't speak for Christianity and Christians, but I will say this: Just because a major figurehead happens to be Christian, doesn't mean his actions are all in line wit hChristian beliefs. Just like Osama Bin Laden. He's "Muslim" and does everything in the name of Islam, but does that mean Islam accepts his actions and that his actions are the examples by which Islam should be judged? Hell No. Humans are the hypocrites (sp?), not religions. But that's expected, because humans are born with imperefctions and limitations. So naturally, they will do some asinine things.
Oops I for got those guys, yea they were a-holes in the name of the agnostic worker's paradise. I guess all peoples regardless of race , color or creed can be murderous bastages. Swell.
an article from the end of 2001 is hardly a long time ago. anyway, your claim was that there are/were no conflicts in bangladesh. obviously, that is not the case. by the way, heres something more recent for you: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/12/prweb93948.php "Dallas, TX (PRWEB) December 11 2003--The 3rd Annual Meeting of Human Rights congress for Bangladesh Minorities-Dallas Forth Worth (HRCBM-DFW) was held at La Quinta Hotel, Irving, Texas, on November 23, 2003, and a 27 member new Board of Directors and a 9 member Executive Committee for 2004-2005 were elected. The meeting started with one-minute silence to mourn the death of 11 members of the same Hindu minority family who were burnt alive on November 19, 2003, at Sadhanpur village, Banshkhali Upazila (Sub-district), Chittagong, Bangladesh."
Wtf are you talking about..."no wonder"? That's nonsense. So, because, SUPPOSEDLY, the "natives" look at someone with suspicious eyes, it is no wonder they are attracted to extremist groups? I think you are confusing cause and effect here, dude!
Judging Islam on the actions of a handful of fanatics is like judging Christianity on the actions of abortion clinic bombers. They represent the fringe, not the majority. A Houstonian somewhere will beat his wife today, but that doesn't mean all Houstonians beat their wives.
MANAMA (Reuters) - Some 100 Bahraini Islamists shouting "God is Greatest" stormed a French restaurant serving alcohol in the pro-Western Gulf Arab state and threatened diners with knives, witnesses said on Thursday. One diner managed to wrest a knife away from the Islamists and stabbed one with it, causing him severe injuries, a witness said. They said the assailants, opposed to the consumption of alcohol banned by Islam, also threw gasoline bombs at customers' cars parked outside the restaurant near the capital Manama late on Wednesday, damaging nine vehicles. "Abound 100 young men, shouting Allahu Akbar (God is greatest), came to the restaurant carrying knives and shouted at the customers: Why do you drink?," Jahanshah Bakhtiar, owner of La Terrasse Restaurant, told Reuters. "They were acting as if they had the right ideas and people should obey them," he said, adding that there were about 40 customers in the restaurant. Security police investigating the incident declined to comment. Bahrain, headquarters of the U.S. Fifth Fleet and the Gulf's banking hub, has traditionally enjoyed a more liberal atmosphere than some of its more conservative neighbors. It allows restaurants, bars and night clubs to serve alcohol but has recently witnessed a rise in protests against Western-style events deemed immoral by Islamists. Bahraini newspapers reported on Thursday that young men had attacked a house in a village where they suspected foreign workers were producing alcohol.
Listen, I don't know what the percentages are....but this is not the same thing as the lone nut who blows up the abortion clinic claiming he knows who Christ is. It's just not. These ideas that comprise what we call radical Islam clearly have more traction....be that for economic reasons, or whatever. These things happen nearly everyday...nearly everyday someone somewhere is blowing something up in the name of Allah. Seriously...nearly every single day, it seems. Certainly a week doesn't pass us by without some violence like that. Again...I don't know what the percentages are at all. But I think it's somewhat disingenuous to say, "oh yeah...this is just like when an abortion clinic got blown up 5 years ago." Because it's not. It's much more organized...much more structured...much more a part of the culture it's surrounded by.
I think the point is that the middle-east has been in the "dark" ages for quite some time now. I'd think you'd see a lot more christain crusades if we were to reverse the clock a bit.
I agree with your questions about "traction". That traction of thought, however, is related to economic and social status, not religion itself. It's in the <b>guise</b> of religion. And to act like the last abortion clinic bombing was 5 years ago. Please. You must know that's not true. Keep in mind that there are <i>websites</i> detailing where abortion clinics are, and the <b>names and addresses</b> of clinic doctors and nurses. You think that's there so a nice letter can be sent to them along with a copy of the Bible? Violence erupts more often in this case than you know; it's just not mentioned in the national news as much anymore because there are other things to think about. I understand your point, though. However, the reason I originally mentioned this was to show that the idealistic hope of getting a 0% response to something that is SO CLEARLY WRONG will not happen. There are always nuts out there who think anything is allowable under the banner of God. Too bad this banner is one ultimately defined by humans, not God Himself.
that's not the point i'm disputing at all. i'm not disputing the hypothetical that other religions can be hijacked for violence...i'm not saying that at all. what i am disputing is the idea that this is all the same...that judging Islam on what we're seeing from radical Islam today is like judging Christianity from what we see of abortion clinics. i'm not comparing the 1500's to today. i'm countering a comparison of today vs. today. when very mainstream Islamic clerics talk openly about the Jewish enemy at a world Islamic conference in Malaysia....and when we have these attacks on nearly a daily basis...we're not talking about the same thing at all. not even close. again...i don't know how you quantify that...but it's clearly pretty damn significant.
seriously...when was the last abortion clinic bombing??? and when was the last one before that??? has there been one this year?? i'm asking in all honesty.
