How does one know they are moral? Sure it's easy to find comparisons that would put one in a "good" moral light, but it's just as easy to find comparisons that will label you as immoral. What should the standard be? Shouldn't it be the same all the time and not dependant on the circumstance? I just can't accept that something as important and fundamental as this is to the lives of everyone can be so easily brushed aside. As you can see, I care about this deeply and constantly reprove my beliefs with searching, studying, and testing. (Sidenote: Religion by definition is man's attempt to form a relationship with God. Christians believe that their belief is not a religion because Jesus is God's attempt to form a relationship with man. They could never reach God on their own because their sin separates them from Him.)
You aren't the first Christian I've heard say they'd wallow in sin if they were not Christian. I wonder why that is when there are so many atheists and nominal Christians (and nominal adherents of other religions) who don't do that. Actually, Gootan, I don't think that is the phenomenon at all. A sociology study was done where (and, mind you, this is only to the best of my recollection) they did surveys on morality in 14 very different countries. Countries included US, France, Libya, Thailand -- I can't remember them all, but they differed a lot in religion and culture and wealth. And the study found a consistent and overwhelming condemnation of several things including murder, theft, adultery, drug use, rape (again, I don't remember the whole list). The point is there is basic agreement the world over on a lot of the basic building blocks of moral codes.
rimbaud -- I'm not attacking your statement, so don't take it that way. But when you say that only a few strands of Christianity would stand behind that statement about God reaching to man as opposed to the opposite, what do you mean??? I grew up in the Episcopal Church...I am now a member of a Presbyterian Church. I've had tons of friends from all different Protestant denominations and tons more who are Catholic. I think that statement is one of the things we'd all agree on. I mean we all use John 3:16 a lot to sum up our beliefs: "For God so loved the World that He gave His only begotten son...." That "He gave"...not that we reached up and did anything to initiate this. Paul speaks over and over again about how we love because God loved us first. I'm just curious what your thoughts and experiences are regarding this.
Has anyone ever read any Joseph Campbell? I think he gives a lot of insight into the different religions of the world and why they are so different, yet are supposed to be based on the same God. I'm not going to try and paraphrase Dr. Campbell's message, but here is my basic philosophy on religions. I believe that there is some sort of power or "god" that created our world. There is just too much order for it all to be accidental. I believe that man has tried to explain this power/god several times, but our own limited perception and existence is why religions have been different. It is very possible that every culture could be talking about the same power/god, but their regional, geographic influences have a lot to do with the details they subscribe to this deity. For example, many farming cultures viewed their gods as controlling rain, sun, etc. This makes sense because those things were vital to these cultures' survival. Without getting too longwinded here, I guess I have a visual perception of this power/god being on top of a mountain. I think there are many paths to reach the top of the mountain. Someone in India might not ever see the path that an Western Christian person would travel and vice versa, but that doesn't mean any one path is better than the other. I'm not really sure why the concept that "my way is the only way" has infiltrated some organized religions. I think a lot of the stems from the role that religion has played in Politics over the years. It's a lot easier to control a group of people if you can convince them that if they don't believe what you are preaching that they will go to hell. I think the controlling factor and need for numbers of believers has contributed a lot to all the killing/death in the name of religion. I'm probably not really saying anything too profound here, but I just thought I'd offer my 2 cents. For anyone who is interested, I was born into a Methodist family. When my father remarried, we began attending Chinese Baptist Church in Houston. I became a "born again christian" in 7th grade and was very hard core into church life. As I grew older, I was challenged and my beliefs were tested as I started to question things. I realized in college that there is really no way that I can say that someone else's beliefs are less signifigant than mine, since religion is based on faith. Since then, I consider myself a Jeffist (I follow my own path).. Just thought I'd share.
There will always be conflict with people. Be it race, religion or territorial issues conflicts are one certainty. It's pretty much pick your poison. I read an essay last night by Karl Popper that talked about violence and reasoning and how people want to create a Utopia. He basically says that by trying to achieve this Utopia new problems are created, goals are abandoned and changed and everyone begins to go in circles. To often violence is the answer. It's pretty ironic that at times love is the message, hate is the messenger. Everyone wants to do away with opposing beliefs instead of opening their minds and trying to learn from each other. When someone comes into the arguement with the realization that some of their thoughts may be incorrect instead of assuming that their way is the only right way, progress is made. The focus should be put on doing away with the concrete negatives in peoples' lives rather than reaching for an abstract positive such as a Utopian society. Personally I believe that there is a higher power out there and I pray to that being at night with the hopes that I'm doing things the right way. My family is Catholic and I guess that's what I'm closest to, but I really don't have any certain religious practices with the exception that I pray. What turns me off to organized religion are stories like these, the judgement of the self righteous and the contridictions between preach and practice. To often it has more to do with politics and propaganda than what the beliefs were originally based upon. I know that not everyone is like this, but there are many. I guess when an end comes we'll find the answers. Until then I guess I'm just winging it.
