What is Falun Gong and why is China cracking down on it?

I have been reading this with great interest, but I have yet to see the fundamental question answered by either party in this debate..

What is so bad about the practicioners of this philosophy/cult/religion that the PRC has to crack down on them for the sake of "National security"? What do they do that is so bad?
That is the question that comes to my mind after reading the posts here.

If anyone can answer this question with facts, I (and probably others) would appreciate it.

 

Hayes,

Just to clarify - it does not say they are cracking down on Qi Gong, but on other Qi Gong groups that are similar to Falun Gong.

That flows with what michecon has said.

 

OK, I can accept that given what we know over here but, I was kinda also hopin to hear michecon or panda or whoever that is actually from China to tell me why they don't seem to have a problem with a non-violent group being persecuted for no reason.

I have read about it supposedly being a pyramid scheme or a cult, but what about it being either of these makes it ok for ppl to be detained and beaten for their practice of it. So far I haven't heard any good reasons for it.
So far all I have seen are conjectures...no facts.
In order for me to be truly for or against something, I need facts.

 

Hayes,

Yeah, that is what Amnesty says in order to compare them...but it still does not contradict what michecon was saying, that is all.

The gov is not cracking down on all qi gong practices, just some that they, for whatever reason, proclaim as "bad." They are making some form of distinction, that is my only point, and it is not based upon the breathing meditation, as they all incorporate that.

Anyway, that was just one area where I saw you two as not really arguing, but still arguing. I am not challenging either of you. Although I should criticize you because you are so mean with all of your "go look on google" comments.

 

HayesStreets,

No, it is not true that China will crack down on any group that gets thousands of people demonstrating on the street. There are demonstrations of thousands or tens of thousands of people on the street almost every day all over china, mostly over economic issues. Government usually tried to buy them off first.

Also, it is not true that the crack down is extended to other Qi-Gong groups. My father in law is currently working in China. If there are general crack down on Qi-Gong, he will be the first one to know. But a crack down on FLK like (or other religion like Qi-Gong group) may be true.

Rocket2k,

Chinese has a great history. Thus, when an issue came up, they usually tried to look back to history to find parallel. I think (just my guess since I am not even a Chinese citizen) they see two parallels.

One is Tianamon massacre. When FLK is able to organize thousands (or tens of thousands) of people demonstrate in front of central government. It is pretty obvious they have the mean. But on the other hands, if their issue is economic, I bet the result will be completely different.

I think the better precedence is Taipen (sp?) rebellion. It happened several hundred years ago. There are this guy who form a Christian sect. Within a period of about 20 years, the movement ran from region to region within China like a locust. By the time the rebellian is put out, about 60 million Chinese perished.

Put it this way, you give the power of living god to a cheat (unless you believe he can fly, having super human power and is one notch above Jesus Christ), who has the fervant support of tens or hundreds of million supporters who are willing to die for their beloved god, what do you think it will happen.


In the end, that is what China faces. A cult like FLK won't cause much a ripple in a sophisticated modern society like USA but will run like wild fire in a society like China.

Maybe my reply will be best answered by a question. If David Koresh had the power to command tens of millions of devoted supporters, what would you do?

 

Qi Gong itself isn't totally cracked down on. There are two Shao Lin Monks who've started temples here in NYC.

These guys are actaul buddist monks, though one has actually forsaken his vow of chastity, and is at odds with the abbot back in China. Anyway. These guys practice and teach Qi Gong here in the U.S. and the monks in China which aren't stopped by the govt. there also practice it. In fact the govt. is protective of the Monks in China. I'm not sure of the actual classification, but they've been classified as national treasures or someting like that.

 

Hey, administrator, dock Hayes 500 posts for this abuse!!!

Somehow I think he is like me and he wouldn't even care.

 

Rockets2k:
You want facts that tells whether FLG is corrosive to the society, and I wonder what you view as facts. Under the convinient excuse of communism and dictatorship, Americans dismiss everything that CCP says as facts. So if something wrong happens in China, and CCP cracks down on it, their "facts" to back them up on such actions are often dismissed as lies. Ya know, under the everything that communists do is evil and everything that shouters for freedom do is right mentality. Although I don't think all CCP's reports are lies, I think we'll just give up on this "source" here for argument's sake.

On the other side, none of the American institution or media has credibility on China's affairs either, at least in my eyes.For reasons stated in my preivous post The only international institution I deem as credible is the human right commission of UN. If you believe in those one sided internet articles that's up to you, but I guess it's very hypocrite if you believe in some internet sources that you deem as credible, yet, on the other hand, asking others that you obviously don't trust for "facts". Discussion with such person is just a waste of time.

As a side note, I'm always amused when the westerners dimiss a Chinese citizen's words when it's handed out by the government, saying those things were said out of the fear to the government, and then, never let out a peep if a western politician or reporter interview people in China, treating their words as gold as if those people in China suddenly are in no fear for the government.

I'm both skeptical to the CCP's and Western media or insititution's words. CCP for obvious reasons, and the westerner's for the lack of trustworthy motives and a history of demonizing China. However, I understand that's the best an average Westerner can get without live experience in China when it comes to such things.

So the most I can do except presenting my personal experience on FLG is to try present stories from both sides, the China media and the Western media. I hope the following page with stories from both sides can be helpful.

http://www.rickross.com/groups/falun.html#Historical

 

Lol, I guess we are even (although I spoke the truth, it was a huge issue in '94).

 

michecon:
I acutally didn't bother to read any of his lengthy replies. LOL. I mean why waste time talking to someone that can't distinguish meditation for health from meditation for supernatural ablities and immortality.

 

Ok, first off...I NEVER said that I dismiss anyone or anything that is said. That is *your* assumption about me. If you look back at my history of posts, I have never once said anything denigrating about the Chinese government or their ppl. Never.

I also don't blindly believe everything over here either. I give far more credence to an outside, objective source than I do to any government's public story. and our news media isn't much better either. What internet articles are you assuming that I believe? I made no such assertion.
I asked for some facts because I was interested in learning about this issue and yall (you all, for our non-Texan friends) seem to know more about it than I do. If that makes me "a waste of time" to talk to...fine...don't talk. I guess I'll just have to get my information from the media then huh?

Did I dismiss anyone's words? So far the most vocal one in this thread that isn't a "westerner" has been michecon and he doesn't really give that much information..It's seems he would much rather say "I don't have time to explain, just believe me" or "you wouldn't understand unles you speak/read Chinese"....well I'm sorry, I barely have time to learn my new trade, much less learn another language. I would rather ask for someone else who might know better than me explain it to me. Call me lazy, but with my kinda schedule..it's just easier.

Like I said before, I don't truly believe alot that *any* government says, especially when they are tryin to defend themselves from someone else's charges of wrongdoing. I'll agree with you on that.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate any input, but like I said...all I had heard before now was personal stories and conjecture that glossed over or failed to address the *real* reasons why the FLG was "dangerous" to a government as large and powerful as the PRC. When you get down to it, that's what I guess I was looking for, a reason besides "oh they're a cult" or "the leader is nuts(insert various nutty beliefs here) and a charlatan". Why are they *so* dangerous to deserve the reaction they are getting? Torture and jailings just for believing some guy who has some weird (imo) beliefs shouldn't be an acceptable practice, no matter where you are.

 

Rockets2K:

No it's not OK for ppl to be beaten just they have practised FLG. They weren't. If any of these FLG follower numbers is true and all the FLG members are detained, I don't think China has enough prison. FLG is Banned as an organization, which means you can't propagate it in public. Some ppl may still practise the breathe practice part of it, they don't have a prolem from Govt as far as I know, although improper meditation is quite dangous and I do recommend only to follow the traditional way.

However, if you publicly advocate FLG or try to recuit members, you are likely be asked to leave teh public place by police. If you don't follow, you are possiblly be detained (although in most cases police only dismember the group). If you fight the police, you subject yourself to be possiblly subdued. Just like in most other countries.

Some core members are detained for various reasons, money, continue to recruit, vandalism illegal publication, etc. It is reported that FLG members has cut the state Cable system or other means to hijack the broadcasting signal in many places, and cut some of the local electricity line. These people will be certainly prosecuted.

 

Rocket2K:

These exact words in the quotation are what HS put in my mouth. I did say something about wishing he knows the language so that he won't be confined by his internet article, to him that is, but you'll know what I mean if you know his posting habit. Appearantly he is not as readily open-minded. BTW, Tie22 has some good posts for your question.

 

I'm just gonna make this quick, Im still digesting some of the links posted here, so I cant really make another post on the subject till I do. I'm wonderin what your opinion of Amnesty Int is? Would you consider them somewhat neutral on this matter? If you do ( and I do) than you would have to believe that some common ppl have been mistreated because of their continued practice of this. If this were true and they did nothing else to warrant mistreatment at the hands of the police, would you be willing to concede that maybe the government is handling the matter wrongly? I'll probably have more to say tomorrow, it's late and I must get to bed soon. Have a good night/day..

 

Rocket2k:

First let me highlight some of the language used by Amnesty International:

"Many were reportedly beaten by police in the process. At least hundreds are believed to remain in detention. ...

The following are some of the reports of torture and ill-treatment of Falun Gong practitioners received by Amnesty International. Some are accounts of police brutality against people arrested in the immediate aftermath of the ban on the Falun Gong in July 1999. Many other cases have been reported. While in the current climate of repression it is difficult to verify these reports, they contain specific and often detailed information about the places and circumstances in which torture is reported to have occurred, including the names and details of many of the alleged victims, and in some cases their photograph.
Unofficial sources report that...

Most of the allegations cited below come from Falun Gong (FLG) sources in various places in China. "

With kind of organization and Leader FLG has, I'm not sure how much credibility to put on these allegations.

That being said, is it possible some of the allegations are true? Definately. And these doings are wrong. The problem however, lies more in the lawless and CCP's loss of control at the local level in some places than CCP's "brutal prosecution" against FLG. Nor does it indicate Govt shouldn't outlaw FLG.

I can't say occational abuse of police power or excess use of police force by some individuals never existed. Some cases, mostly at local level, were reported, especially during the "strike hard" period years ago. Many have been corrected, some haven't. The problem was probally more serious in county level. If any of these cases actually exists, it would not be because the wronged person is a FLG practitioner. Recently, central government has paid much more attention to this problem. But I personally think there's much more to be desired.