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What Hath JVG Wrought Unto Stevie??

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Nero, Feb 4, 2004.

  1. Nero

    Nero Member

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    Oh man this has been a painful last few days. Last week, really.

    After getting all pumped heading into Miami, all of a sudden it's like it's
    a different team or something. These guys are not playing ANYTHING
    like they were playing the couple weeks prior...

    What the heck has happened? To SF in particular...?

    Now we know that Les has made it clear from Day One of 'The Search'
    that JVG was his boy. And now, with all that has happened this season,
    either Les is trying to break some kind of record for being a 'Hands-Off Owner',
    or else he is simply showing us that JVG is more his boy than Stevie is..

    Either way, bad bad things have been happening.

    We all know what Steve's weaknesses are - low PG instinct, turnover-prone,
    tries too hard to be the whole show, bear the whole load on his shoulders..
    that kind of thing.

    So why the heck is this kid about to play in his 3rd All-Star game, 2nd
    as a starter??

    Because his strengths, up to now, have overshadowed his not-insignifigant
    weaknesses.

    The kid can absolutely play ball. Granted, with a lot of 'street flava' ,
    but still, we had a kid who had some incredible pluses to go along
    with his pretty big minuses, and the pluses OUTWEIGHED the minuses..
    in other words, as bad as he was defensively, as many boneheaded
    things he would try, we all still felt reasonably confident that, at the
    end of the night, we were better off with him on our team instead of
    on the other guy's team.

    Now, however, things have changed. I personally do not like the changes.
    And I do not necessarily blame Steve.

    I mean you could almost make the case that JVG has set out to deliberately
    ruin Steve's career. I doubt that is true, but still, it's happening, whether
    it is the result of a deliberate effort to bring it about or not.

    All of those strengths of SF's are being thrown away, and all we are
    left with is the weaknesses. THAT AINT GONNA WORK.

    My God, did you see the look on his face in that one shot of SF on
    the bench in the NJ game? The one where he just leaned back, and
    shut his eyes, almost in tears of pure miserable frustration? It was
    heartbreaking, because this is a good kid, in his heart, and one of
    our own, and we should all feel his pain.

    Most people in their lives have been put into uncomfortable situations,
    where you are being asked to do things that are either just beyond
    your ability, or run totally counter to your skill set. As much as his
    little Super Bowl stunt was pig-headed and made us all angry, we
    don't need to be getting a holier-than-thou attitude about it. Instead,
    we need to be trying to undertsand ways to make the situation better,
    not worse.

    What JVG SHOULD be doing is trying to maximize SF's strengths, and
    minimize his weaknesses, but he's been doing just the opposite.
    WHY?
    Has it ever been clearer that SF needs to be playing at the 2? And
    should NEVER be asked to play the point again?

    So I am wondering about JVG through all this..

    (Mark Jackson passes to Jim Jackson, who passes to Scott Padgett,
    who passes to Clarence Weatherspoon, who passes to Piatkowski,
    who misses a 3.. JVG calls timeout, as assistant coach Patrick Ewing
    rises from the bench.. does that seem weird to anyone else?)

    Does the guy have what it takes to coach these players? (the ones
    left, anyway?)

    Think about it. During that good stretch, where everyone was talking
    about YAO suddenly coming on, he was making wide-open 19-footers,
    the offense was opening it up, we were scoring points, and making
    assists, and playing some heavy D. They looked like they were
    actually running PLAYS designed to move Yao out from the basket
    offensively, TO PLAY MORE TO HIS STRENGTHS.

    But that is up the last few games? I ahve seen him take that shot
    maybe 4 or 5 times total in this losing streak. No, JVG and PU have
    him jammed back up under the hoop again, and his numbers are
    back down.. blahhh..

    It's like JVG has this set thing in his mind about what HE wants to
    build, and he is going to squeeze what he has here until it magically
    becomes what he wants, without any flexibility, or until the players
    in question simply die of a total lack of confidence and retire in shame.

    The guy is the only coach in the league to have TWO All Star Starters,
    and he is not playing to the natural strengths of either one.

    This 'My Way Or Nothing' crap is totally blind to the benefits these
    players bring, outside of his rigid system. Everybody can see it, no one
    more so than Steve.

    And I think SF just snapped. He has been so abjectly miserable, so unhappy,
    experiencing such feelings of failure and inadequacy for probably the
    first time since he picked up a ball, all in the name of turning him into
    a run-of-the-mill, pass-first, spot-up-jump-shooting point guard.

    He knows he is never going to be that guy. We have known it here
    for a few years now. The only guy who seems to NOT get it is JVG.

    This is a fact: This team will NEVER succeed with SF as its point guard
    and JVG as the coach. This team CAN succeed with SF at the 2 guard,
    and JVG as the coach, but only if JVG pulls his head out of his orifice
    before SF is totally and completely ruined.

    We need a big PG who can spot up and play solid defense. And Cat
    is just going to have to live with being the league's best 6th man,
    or else he is going to have to GO.

    Ok sorry for the long rant, but I have been stewing about this for days, and
    I really wanted to offer up something other than the standard 'Steve
    Must Go' thread...


    nothing like a losing streak to bring out the cyanide pills, eh?
     
  2. haven

    haven Member

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    The team pretty much has to commit to an offensive system that better suits Yao or Steve.

    I agree that sometimes Yao can move further out - but that ignores an entire part of his game. Sure, he can be Vlade Divac if you want - but that ignores the fact that he can play the low post effectively, too.

    JVG decided that the team is best when it plays inside out. Mostly, I'd agree. A strong post presence opens up the perimeter and lanes when the double team is forced... and when it's not, Yao can torch the opposition from the post.

    Playing the pure perimeter game abandons too much of the potential offense on the team. Allowing Francis to play as he does best minimizes the impact of many of the other players on the team.

    You can argue that Yao isn't ready... or that Yao is more effective in a diminished capacity than Steve francis is. But it's hardly an irrational decision. And if it doesn't benefit Steve... well, you can hardly accomodate 1 player at the expense of the team.
     
  3. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    I am very reluctant to criticize coaching strategies. As some Old *cough* *cough* uh. . . member so articulately said, we have to admit we are very stupid basketball-wise compared to the NBA coaches. I totally agree with him.

    That said, I've been saying for quite long that sticking Yao under the basket all the time is not the best way to use him. Sure enough, he was allowed to shoot from the top and with good results.

    Now with Francis, it's the same thing. Is JVG forcing him to expose his weaknesses in a more glaring way, like Yao in the beginning of the season?

    Of course, there is always the argument that this is the growing pain. Forcing them to learn what they don't do well will eventually make them better all around players. Frankly, I still can't decide whether this argument is valid or not. But I'm willing to give the coach the benefit of the doubt. After all, I am pretty stupid basketball-wise compared to him. ;)
     
  4. room4rentsf

    room4rentsf Contributing Member

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    Very interesting post Nero.. I dont agree with everything you stated but I admit you have some valid points.

    IMO Les has set JVG in charge and wants to see what he can develop be it with these players or not. I do agree with people that SF3 is not being utilized properly and that his game has suffered for it but I think JVG is trying to adapt. Everyone must have noticed that SF3 has been spending more time playing the 2 which leaves us vulnerable defensively since MJ cant play defense and SF is too small.

    For this situation to work I would start JJ at the point and let SF3 play the 2 guard. This allow JJ to handle the ball most likely turning it over alot less than SF3 did and making better decisions while guarding the other teams opposing 2. SF3 will have more freedom to look for his shot and continue guarding the other teams PG or smaller player.

    This leaves an open spot at the 3 which I hope Agriffin or Pike/ boki can fill..

    I dont think JVg is out to get anyone, but I dont think he wants to pamper anyone either. These are grown men not boys.. not kids.

    You may think what you want but my bro. is 18 and in the army serving in Iraq right now. Hes a man doing a mans job.

    I really think we need to retool our roster and make some trades.. but I would like to keep the core of SF/Yao and JJ everyone is expendable IMO.

    J
     
  5. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Your big mistake was in thinking that Steve is a three time all-star because his strengths are greater than his weaknesses. He is a three time all-star because he is a flashy dunker who throws down ally-oops from the PG position.

    JVG hasn't done anything to Steve except EXPOSE HIM for the fraud of a player he is. I have been begging for Steve to be traded for YEARS, unfortunately his value is now PLUMMETING. If we had traded him in the offseason last year, we would be much better off.

    Steve is simply not a good enough player to move Cat to the bench, bring in an Eric Snow clone, and switch defensive assignments a la Allen Iverson. Do you think the Sixers would trade Ivy for Fancy, they would laugh in your face if you offered them that. Quite frankly, Steve was the most overrated player in the league, and now people are finally seeing what he really is, an and1 streetballer with little in the way of actual basketball skills.

    What is the best thing for Steve Francis? Stop trying to pretend to be an NBA player and go play for the Globetrotters, or hustle playgrounds.
     
  6. RocketFan4ever

    RocketFan4ever Contributing Member

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    WOW...thats all I can say...WOW Ive been resisting all day not to answer some of these charges all of you are taking at Steve, but this thread has officially pushed me over the line. I cannot believe you think that this team would be better off without Steve. That we just could bring in some other player to fill his shows, which by the way he is our leading scorer. Look what happened Monday night. We got to see what we are like without him. Yao is years away from actually being relied on to carry this team, if even then. Granted Steve has weaknesses but who doesnt. You think Jordan or Dream were such legends their 4th year in the league.....NO. Now Im not comparing Steve to Dream or Jordan so don't dog me for the analogy.

    And as for the All Star cry babies, I want to know who among you actually voted os stata and stats alone? Who went to NBA.com looked at the League Leaders and voted only for those players? Anyone?? Of course not you voted for your favorite players on your favorite team. That is whats expected otherwise they wouldn't let the public even vote. It would be decided by the top players just like the coaches are chosen. And don't even begin to tell me that Shaq deserves to start...the guy has hardly played all year and if ever had even half of the fouls called that he commits he would be useless in this league. OK I guess Im done ranting, I'll go back to work now.....
     
  7. mulletman

    mulletman Member

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    steve is still houstons best player. if only yao could carry the team. i agree with nero. next time i go to a rockets game, i'm going to start some "fire van gundy" chants....:mad:
     
  8. Juugie

    Juugie Member

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    Even with all of that, he's STILL a better player than Yao. He averages more points and damn near as many rebounds.

    And at least Steve has respect around the league. Players think Yao is a big puss and don't mind letting him know how they are going to dunk on him. Have you ever heard player talking about dunking on a big man more than they talk about dunking on Yao?

    If anything, Yao is the most overhyped, overrated player in the league. For all the attention he gets, he is still only a 16/8 player at over 100 games into his career.

    LeBron James is only halfway into his first year, and he already dominated more games than Yao. He at 18 is already twice the player Yao is at 23. If only the Rockets could have had the number one pick last year...
     
  9. oliver_67

    oliver_67 Member

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    Then trade Yao for Lebron and I don't see Houston with better records.
     
  10. hitman1900

    hitman1900 Member

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    I agee with you about Yao, but Steve has respect around the league? Then why do all the point guards in the league go at him without fear and torch him? I don't think any team really respects our supposed all-stars.
     
  11. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    Everything you just said in the first three paragraphs is spot on. Steve would be such a liability at the two--it's simply ridiculous to even imagine it.

    As for the last paragraph, I know you were just kidding. Still, your stretch of reality about Steve not being an NBA player is no more of a stretch than all the accolades he gets around here by these people that insist on glorifying him. If the NBA was a one on one sport, Steve could just possibly win the championship......but it's not, and people need to realize he doesn't bring enough to the table in this team sport to get paid the max.

    I won't miss him.
     
  12. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    This is has so many racial overtones its not even funny. You guys are blinded by hatred.
     
  13. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    Oh the irony.
     
  14. Juugie

    Juugie Member

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    You couldn't get LeBron for two Yao Mings
     
  15. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    StupidMoniker is blinded a lot more by hatred than I am by loyalty. So are you. Anyone who thinks Cuttino can replace Steve is really thinking too hard. The guy is an average player, everyone in the NBA knows, but I guess you two guys know something the whole league doesn't.
     
  16. oliver_67

    oliver_67 Member

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    Junglie, that's just nonsense.

    LOL.:D
     
  17. MFW2310

    MFW2310 Contributing Member

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    The same Lebron that averages 4 more points with twice the shots?
     
  18. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    Wow.....you have the inside track on what everyone in the whole league knows? I can't believe I even questioned you.

    Here's all I know:

    -More players respect Mobley's defense than they do Steve's....actually, that doesn't tell the whole story: Mobley is considered a good defender; Francis is considered a poor defender. Seeing as you know what everyone in the NBA thinks, I know you won't dispute that.
    -Mobley's shooting percentages.....across the board.....are better than Steve's
    -Francis is a point guard; he should get a lot of assists. Mobley is a shot guard; he should shoot a lot. Yet, Francis shoots more than Mobley while Mobley is second on the team in assists. Yes, Francis leads the team in assists, but he can't even dish out twice as many dimes as Mobley.
    -Francis leads the team in scoring......which is damn convenient considering the fact that he controls the ball. Yet Mobley is right behind him.
    -Traditionally, Francis has been a better rebounder than Mobley, but quite frankly, is that really what we want our guards doing? Still, Francis is just snagging one more board per game than Mobley.

    Statistically, there really isn't any significant differences. Mobley has been shooting poorly as of late as well, so his percentages....though not as bad as Steve's.....are nothing to write home about.

    They are virtual clones of each other....whether you like it or not.

    And Mobley does the same **** as Francis for less than half of the salary cap hit.

    So you tell me......what am I missing?

    What makes Francis more than twice the player that Mobley is?
     
  19. Charvo

    Charvo Member

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    In his 4 years, Steve has not been voted to any of the all-NBA teams by the coaches. Someone please tell me why. Don't tell me the coaches realize that guys like Steve Nash (who has won the honor of being 3rd team all-NBA the last two years) are more important to 5 on 5 basketball than dunking point guards.
     
  20. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Okay,

    When Mobley gets his name mentioned with Oscar and Magic you can tell me he's in the same league as Steve.
    Steve is THE ONLY other player to go 19-5-5 his first four years in the NBA besides Magic and Oscar.'

    When Mobley does something that only two or one other players is doing in the league that year. You can tell me he's in Steve's league. By going 20-6-6 Francis puts himself in an elite class.

    When Mobley gets a triple double, you can maybe begin to say he plays at Steve's level.

    Until then, you may say their stats are not that different, but that slight difference puts Francis in an elite status while Mobley's at average to good.

    As far as what the whole league knows, I may not know, but I do know that I've never heard and NBA expert say that Mobley was in Francis's league. I've heard many complaints about Steve, but I've only heard that on this web site.
     

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